Just wondering about what variation of the "cheap small car with cheap bigger engine" would be reasonable to build today, the contemporary equivalent of a big block Nova or B18 Civic. What has the right combination of availability donors and platforms, with a fairly straightforward installation?
K series Honda Fit? 2ZZ-GE in a Yarris or Scion XA? Supercharged Ecotech in an Aveo / Sonic? Something with a Mitsubishi Mirage or Nissan Versa?
NC Miata with a 2.5 MZR is a popular one.
MadScientistMatt said:Just wondering about what variation of the "cheap small car with cheap bigger engine" would be reasonable to build today, the contemporary equivalent of a big block Nova or B18 Civic. What has the right combination of availability donors and platforms, with a fairly straightforward installation?
K series Honda Fit? 2ZZ-GE in a Yarris or Scion XA? Supercharged Ecotech in an Aveo / Sonic? Something with a Mitsubishi Mirage or Nissan Versa?
I've seen s/c k-series in a honda fit. I don't know how custom it was, but it was a WILD ride.
Does this count? Rover 3.9 from TWS, 270 HP aluminum V8 in 1900 pound car?
But as far as modern engine swaps, putting k20 or k24's in older Hondas is a thing.
This is almost like asking "who do you guys recommend that I marry?" Everyone has different preferences! Heck, if everyone says to put engine X into chassis Y, is that even a reason to do the same? I always prefer the path less traveled, i.e. Honda H22 into the back of a "Mini", or a turbo K24 in the back of a "Seven." Make your own path, young man!
In reply to kb58 :
Those are all wildly custom one-off jobs. The examples Matt gave were well-trodden examples with some engineered bolt-in solutions. They also tend to be from the same manufacturer which means it's more interchange than a reeingineering. That may score fewer cool points than a weird setup, but they can still be a hoot to drive and are accessible to more people.
Ecoboost four into an NC Miata might be an interesting one. Some packaging problems but not insurmountable ones.
Basing my opinion on anything that requires about as much effort and $$$ as a V8 Miata.
This leaves a lot of room for the Honda K series to be the next small block Chevy engine into everything.
After choosing the Honda K24 as the basis for Midlana, I've lost track on the later generations. Is it still available, or did production stop at some point?
LS7 in a Saturn Sky/Pontiac Solstice.
The Mallett LS2 V8 Solstice – Mallett Performance Cars (mallettcars.com)
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Keith Tanner said:In reply to kb58 :
Those are all wildly custom one-off jobs. The examples Matt gave were well-trodden examples with some engineered bolt-in solutions. They also tend to be from the same manufacturer which means it's more interchange than a reeingineering. That may score fewer cool points than a weird setup, but they can still be a hoot to drive and are accessible to more people.
Ecoboost four into an NC Miata might be an interesting one. Some packaging problems but not insurmountable ones.
In this case, I wasn't sure which of these were in fact well scienced out and bolt in versus which are so much work that you would have an easier time putting the engine where the back seat used to be. It's easy to come up with some mental combinations of engines and platforms that were cheap to begin with and have bottomed out on the depreciation curve, but what's a hot combo to build and what's just hot garbage?
A small block V8. Why do I say this?
Well modern twin cam 4 cylinder engines are heavier than people think, especially turbo 4s
You can get a small block down to 400lbs versus 340-360lbs for a twin cam 4 cylinder.
Given the performance potential of a small block V8 why would you give that up to save 40-60lbs?
Keith Tanner said:In reply to kb58 :
Those are all wildly custom one-off jobs. The examples Matt gave were well-trodden examples with some engineered bolt-in solutions. They also tend to be from the same manufacturer which means it's more interchange than a reeingineering. That may score fewer cool points than a weird setup, but they can still be a hoot to drive and are accessible to more people.
Ecoboost four into an NC Miata might be an interesting one. Some packaging problems but not insurmountable ones.
The Ranger version would be a better fit, since it has the HPFP on top of the valve cover, not hanging out behind the head.
They're slightly taller than the 2.5 because of the fuel pump, but at least it's fairly far back where it has a fighting chance to clear the hood.
kb58 said:After choosing the Honda K24 as the basis for Midlana, I've lost track on the later generations. Is it still available, or did production stop at some point?
K20 is still in production for the non-hybrid Civics and HR-V (K20C). They have gone through a lot of changes over the years to add stuff like an integrated exhaust manifold and direct injection and other such things for fuel economy/emissions/thermal efficiency, but they're still around and there's a LOT of them, which means that inevitably they will start getting pulled out of wrecks and put into older stuff when the engine management gets figured out...the peak HP/TQ specs are only marginally better than the K20A3, but the area under the curve is huge by comparison, so would probably be a real fun swap into something like a Fit (and knock back 45MPG too).
In reply to pointofdeparture :
The largest differences are that the newer ones have the exhaust forward, not rearward. I am fairly sure that all "flipped" engines are also direct injected.
I don't think anything really interchanges between the two flavors. Even the oil pan is different because the oil filter mounts to the pan now, not the block. Which means the block is significantly different. And your oil pan situation for a swap will have to accommodate that somehow.
Tom1200 said:A small block V8. Why do I say this?
Well modern twin cam 4 cylinder engines are heavier than people think, especially turbo 4s
You can get a small block down to 400lbs versus 340-360lbs for a twin cam 4 cylinder.
Given the performance potential of a small block V8 why would you give that up to save 40-60lbs?
I feel the same about the LFX vs LS3 swaps. Sure, you'll save 100 lbs but you'll give up 100 hp and 150 lbs of torque and it's just as much work. But they sound different :)
A K is a different sort of beast, though. You can get away with a less burly drivetrain because they don't have the torks or quite as much power. They do seem to be a little more problematic than the V8s, at least in the Miata applications. I think that's because people tend to work the engines over and pull the pin on the grenade :)
In reply to Keith Tanner :
LFX makes a lot of sense when you look at the price of a complete copart type donor - it has engine/transmission/wiring all in a neat, not particularly well loved package (that is, affordable). LS eat your lunch when you're getting the transmission sourced (well, and the engine depending on what you're going with). You can get an entire v6 car for how much it cost for my transmission.
In reply to accordionfolder :
Fair enough. That was the case for LS swaps when I did the MG - you could buy a complete LS1/T56 Camero for the price of an LS1 and T56, and that was the dealer cost of a new T56 Magnum last time I checked. I think this is first time I've seen "it was cheap" as the justification for an LFX over an LSx, though :)
The engine/transmission is usually the biggest single cost, but there are so many smaller ancillary ones that eventually overwhelm it. Looking at the cost of the parts we used in the ND V8 cars and ignoring labor, the brand new transmission was about 13% of the total cost. Engine and controller, using a new EROD crate (not the least expensive LS3 crate) was 23%. So assuming you basically get the engine and wiring for "free" with an LFX, it would have cut the overall cost of the conversion by a bit less than a quarter. Not trivial, but I guess you also get about a quarter less power and torque :) You'd also be dealing with used parts without a warranty and you have to deal with disposing of the carcass after you've stripped it. Definitely a viable option but not quite as dramatic as "you can get an entire car for the cost of a transmission" makes it sound.
The weight of some of the 4 cylinder engines is indeed often higher than you might anticipate, especially with the cast iron block models, (the high pressure turbo models often have these for strength) but I still like the turbo 4 cylinder route. I run a 2,- Ecotec with 375 bhp, which is a sustainable reliable power level, but you can go up from there well into the 400+ territory if you want to - they have produced up around 2000 bhp in race cars - here is a street version https://www.gminsidenews.com/threads/747-horsepower-from-a-2-0l-ecotec.48342/ and that was back in the early days (2007) of the Ecotec. Another one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs5JTqdZ4sE with only 1,806 bhp.
The nice thing about the turbo 4 cylinder is that unless you are putting your foot to the floor, they run and suck gas like a miser, but the power is there when you want it. I've done them all - from the Ecotec to V12 engines with a half dozen DCOE Webers (that would get down to almost single digit fuel consumption when being run hard) and sixpack big block Chryslers (surprisingly not bad as they ran on a centre 2 bbl unless you really booted it),
I've been involved in an alloy block Olds V8 swap into an MG (very old tech) and chose a more compact modern 3.4 GM V6 for my last conversion effort. I've seen too many people with visions of huge power numbers that aren't realistically usable on the street, put out huge amounts of money for results that are unsatisfactory. That tends to make me favour he smaller lighter engines. Big engines in small engine bays are a PITA! But to each his own.
Keith Tanner said:A K is a different sort of beast, though. You can get away with a less burly drivetrain because they don't have the torks or quite as much power. They do seem to be a little more problematic than the V8s, at least in the Miata applications. I think that's because people tend to work the engines over and pull the pin on the grenade :)
K motors have this huge reputation, but mild ones only make low-200s at the wheels and I suspect that most people going to the effort of a K swap are interested in a lot more so they tend to be tweaked, high revving or turbos or both and that hurts reliability.
Dunno if this counts as "cheap", but S54 in an E36? The B48 (turbo 4-cylinder in a lot of newer BMWs) also reportedly swaps into older chassis pretty well and can make a ton of power.
In reply to accordionfolder :
I went round and round on motorswaps for my Datsun.
I could turbo the 1200 engine and end up with a 200lb 175-200whp engine.
The next step was a 250-275whp enigine that weighed 380lbs. The trans for this set up is 100lbs.
The Ford 5.0 can be brought down to 400lbs and the T5 box only weighs 78lbs. 275-300whp in mild trim.
Note I don't the LS. The Ford is what I looked because it was compact and my fabricator is a Ford guy.
In reply to Tom1200 :
You'd be surprised how compact an LS is. There's nothing weird sticking out like there is on the old 302. One of the big reasons they get used in so many swaps is because they're small. You can fit an LS engine in a Miata more easily than a 5.0, for example. They do require a stronger transmission than a T5 though :)
LS3 vs Miata 1.8.
BMW probably does have some interesting interchanges. I know a nest of BMW people who do like mixing up their alphabet soup.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Let's see that V8 with accessories like the Mazda engine, now 
Bonus points for headers, because few people use the cast iron manifolds.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
The manifolds are on it
In reply to Keith Tanner :
As I don't fab I am obligated to Ford V8s..............or I have to find a new fabricator.
I solved the motor swap issue via buying the Foxbody Mustang.
Of course even with a V8 my Datsun would only weigh 1900lbs. I'm think it would be "mildly" amusing with a 300hp motor.
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