Why aren't there more rwd cars?

BTW next time you need to get a FWD car up a slippery hill - turn around. That's right, back up the hill.

For all the people that are bashing FWD in the snow, you clearly have not driven them that often. You can make almost any FWD car oversteer in slippery conditions. Get off the gas aggressively and if that isn't enough, hand brake. You simply need to get the rear to break traction, but the throttle won't do it.

I have done it in Grand Am, Golfs, Passats.

The key to FWD when it is slippery, is try to ask it to only do one thing at a time. Brake and accelerate in a straight line. Only turn when you aren't doing one of those two.

Streetwiseguy wrote:

nicksta43 wrote: I will never feel comfortable with any FWD car in slippery conditions. True snow tires will make anything a tank but I cannot mentally get over the fact that when you do lose traction you also lose steering. That's why when the truck lost traction I added just a touch of counter steering and gently eased off the throttle, and it really was drama free. In th FWD death trap, not only did it lose traction earlier but as soon as it did the front end washed over and nearly went off the edge of the road due to the roads camber. Where I felt completely in control of the truck, I felt totally out of control in the car. Maybe it's just that I feel more comfortable with over steer than under steer?

You sound just like I did 10 years ago. I was wrong, too.

That's when you go full lock, and start applying the handbrake, little throttle on top of that if needed. The car will pull itself through a corner on good snows. I do it all the time.

Also, in a RWD car, you can't do awesome stuff like get it out of a tight parallel parking spot in winter by locking the handbrake, putting in 1st, steering full lock and going for it.

My Integra is the first FWD car I have ever owned. It is fun, just like my previous rwd cars. My awd car understeered horribly.

NGTD wrote: BTW next time you need to get a FWD car up a slippery hill - turn around. That's right, back up the hill. For all the people that are bashing FWD in the snow, you clearly have not driven them that often. You can make almost any FWD car oversteer in slippery conditions. Get off the gas aggressively and if that isn't enough, hand brake. You simply need to get the rear to break traction, but the throttle won't do it. I have done it in Grand Am, Golfs, Passats. The key to FWD when it is slippery, is try to ask it to only do one thing at a time. Brake and accelerate in a straight line. Only turn when you aren't doing one of those two.

I will add that if the car does not have ABS.. you can feather the brakes too. The rears will lock before the front due to the engine torque

nicksta43 wrote: In reply to Adrian_Thompson: You are wrong, Pink Floyd is better than Opera.

Opera vs Pink Floyd. Hmmmmm. Well at least opera's s2000 is rwd.

And it's way cooler than their integra for the same reason we've been talking about.

NGTD wrote: BTW next time you need to get a FWD car up a slippery hill - turn around. That's right, back up the hill. For all the people that are bashing FWD in the snow, you clearly have not driven them that often. You can make almost any FWD car oversteer in slippery conditions. Get off the gas aggressively and if that isn't enough, hand brake. You simply need to get the rear to break traction, but the throttle won't do it. I have done it in Grand Am, Golfs, Passats. The key to FWD when it is slippery, is try to ask it to only do one thing at a time. Brake and accelerate in a straight line. Only turn when you aren't doing one of those two.

back in my college days, I put my 87 Integra into curbs three times in snow and ice (yeah, back then I was a broke college student on low-tread all seasons). All three times I did it going backwards while trying to make turns. No understeer found, rear end went right around.

years later in my Maxima (with Blizzak LM-22s), I was able to get the rear end out pretty easily when I wanted to in the snow, and that car is pretty heavy back there.

Pink floyd vs Opera part 2.

This guy's collection contains very few if any fwd cars, so I guess Pink floyd is rwd too!

Imagine for a moment if this car was fwd.

yamaha wrote: In reply to AverageH: No offense intended, but you are proving 93ex right by your last post. Not all FWD cars are fun, just like not all RWD cars are fun, which is also just like not all AWD cars are fun. All drive types have some type of FUN car existing within their respective ranks. Sometimes you can make a boring pedestrian car of whatever drive type fun as well. In reply to Mr_Clutch42: berkeley Bob Costas shiny happy person E36 M3

Yeah, I think my thoughts didn't go to paper very well on that one. My point was that some cars aren't meant for any fun, but I don't think they're part of the discussion here other than why they are built in the first place. Tweaking a crappy little fwd corolla and making it better is great, and it is what the GRM crowd is all about. I felt that no matter how good I had it with my fwd cars, and how many mods I did I still felt like I was polishing a turd and wasting my time; The weaknesses outweighed the positives no matter what I did. Going to a better platform (subjective here, as it's all about opinions, right?) was my quicker and more satisfying solution. Before I purchase a car, I research potential to no end. I don't have the time or money to waste on fwd any more; they are never satisfying to me. A stab of the throttle is how I want the rear to rotate, not the damned e-brake.

-Hamid

93EXCivic wrote:

AverageH wrote: Sure, as I said before I have had some fun in fwd cars, but in the end they are not nearly as fun; They're annoying. Double wishbone econo-civic or not, the fronts are doing everything. The good ones are rwd emulators, so what's the point? Besides, didn't you create a post not too long ago complaining about how bored you were of your civic?

I was mostly ranting about it being old and broken. Anyway I still have it and I bought another, a '99 SI. I have a blast autocrossing the '84 Sciricco and my '93 Civic. Both of which are IMHO examples of when FWD is awesome. Plus read my earlier post, I drove my '93 Civic back to back with a '90 Miata and bought the Civic cause I thought the Civic was more fun. Now for heavier cars with more power, RWD is the only way to go but lightweight low powered FWD cars can be a blast.

Funny, I think you and I have discussed this before on the Spitfire forum. I find it really interesting that the two cars that you mention as being the most satisfying fwd are the two that drove me nuts ('91 CRX and an '81 Scirrocco for me, but anyway)!! They are the reason I went to the miata, actually. Anyway, I'm not gonna say I'm right as this obviously proves how different opinions can be, but I find it funny.

I bet I can change your opinion of me instantly... With a first name of Hamid you would assume I'm of a darker complexion, right? Nope, blonde hair and blue eyes. I just blew your mind.

-Hamid

In reply to AverageH:

The rotation thing is all in setup. My '91 sho will rotate a bit too much to be honest.....light drifting last time out at a grissom autox.  It has the largest factory roll bars you can get and a rear stb.

My bmw will probably need the factory front roll bar removed to even be controllable.

In reply to yamaha:

Yeah, but it's still not the same. I'm talking steering with the throttle. That again is just a rwd emulator to me; no thanks.

-Hamid

The real bottom line is that both FWD and RWD and AWD can be fun if you drive them in anger...or in conditions that suit them. I speak as one who has had fun driving all three, in many conditions....

wow. for some of you FWD is the spawn of satan

Jeez, different strokes...... All drive types have their own strengths weakness and limitations. I agree that the almighty dollar, safety, and cargo space is why there aren't more rwd cars. I like to go fast in all types of cars, I feel by mastering high performance driving in all drive types, you will be a better driver in the type you prefer. which really handles better on the track is a matter of driver skill and preference.

I know I could have a fun day with a Neon ACR. Then wake up the next day and have fun in an E30.

That's what I know!

I have a MINI and a Miata. They're both a lot of fun , each in their own way.You just have to adjust your driving style to the car you're in at the moment.

In reply to ebonyandivory: Best post in this thread

mad_machine wrote: wow. for some of you FWD is the spawn of satan

No for some of these guys it's much worse than that. Being the spawn of Satan could be fun, for them FWD is the spawn of Muammar Gaddafi and Osama bin Laden with a side serving of Hitler.

As I’ve said several times, I grew up believing FWD was a curse like automatic transmissions that should be banned or used as a punishment for rapists. Having grown up and become more encompassing in my world view as I switched from Conservative to Liberal I've learned both can be fin in different ways.

Right, now all I have to do is shoot the pope with a hand gun that has Glock-AK-47-baby-killer etched into it as identification and I've hit every single flounder button in one reply and I can sit back and watch GRM implode.

My work is done.

Seriously guys, live and let live.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

You sir are a genius!!

AverageH wrote: In reply to yamaha: Yeah, but it's still not the same. I'm talking steering with the throttle. That again is just a rwd emulator to me; no thanks. -Hamid

FWD is very steerable with the throttle. Just in a different way.

In reply to iceracer:

I agree and have said here in the past they it is simply a skill I do not possess. Some people can eat eggs without ketchup on them, I am not one of them.

In reply to nicksta43:

WTF is wrong with you

Interesting read on the dynamics of FF and FR to settle that arguement:
http://home.comcast.net/~cvetters3/test1.htm

Also, take the FF engine package and put it over the rear axle. Best of both worlds. :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LHsWMVsdWE (not me)

Having daily driven all four major drivetrains (FF, FR, 4WD, MR), I have to say that the only benefit of driven rear wheels in day-to-day life is the ability to do donuts and kick the back end out in desolate areas. Other than that it all comes down to how well sorted the chassis is. That said, there are a lot more cool looking, well sorted RWD's under $5k than FWD's, save for rare non- riced Hondas, running mk1 VW's and a couple quirky Ford products. Newer and more expensive cars tend to lean the other way though.

As I’ve said several times, I grew up believing FWD was a curse like automatic transmissions that should be banned or used as a punishment for rapists. Having grown up and become more encompassing in my world view...

Ok, I could buy in to FWD being fun to drive in spite of my long held preferences, but this, this is more than I can handle - acceptance of automatic transmissions?

That is just shameful...