Any chance for a reasonable discussion about guns?

Fueled by Caffeine said:

In reply to SV reX :

I don't think we can have a solid discussion until the facts and the studies are completed and laid out before us.   Inside this stupid echo chamber all we do is talk about beliefs and feelings. Beliefs and feelings can get people to vote for you but they sure make bad decision points.  One side of this debate will call the data distorted  drive fear and then push people to buy more guns .  Ever wonder why so many major gun manufacturers are owned by hedge and PE firms.   It's a pump and dump business model built up feelings and beliefs.  

 

I agree. 
 

But I am also pretty certain that you were the first to say in this thread that guns are the leading killer of kids.  6 or 8 or 10 pages later I'm pushing back on your emotional argument that isn't based on too many facts.
 

I apologize if it wasn't you.

bobzilla said:

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) said:

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Yeah, well, your entire premise is flawed!  


In all seriousness, the data that is available is getting picked, massaged and presented to support a viewpoint. This happens for more topics than gun control and gun violence.
In addition, the data we do have isn't complete. Honest actors from either side of the argument should be able to see and recognize this.

So, yeah. It's difficult to form conclusions with incomplete data.

Agreed. The data, like many "polls" are generated to support whatever agenda they are pushing.

But this is my point. If you can logically apply this to some data, then you can also apply it to any and all data. 

Applying it to some data and not all data is just picking the data that supports your theory, so not really a credible debate tactic, as you point out.

And applying the idea to ALL data is as ridiculous as applying the "end of the world" logic as REM points out in their song.

So, while I will agree that "data is picked to push the agenda of the author" is an argument that is sometimes valid, I find that it is almost always not useful.

The absence of useful data does not benefit either side's argument, but when people invoke it they are almost always trying to benefit their own argument.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

I disagree. 
 

When biased or inaccurate data is identified, it SHOULD be called out, and it DOES  benefit both sides. 
 

There is almost nothing these days that has an absence of data. There may often be a shortage of reliable data in a particular conversation.
 

When bias and inaccuracy is identified, it gives both sides the opportunity to find better data (or change their positions if they are errant).

In reply to SV reX :

Who decides the data is biased or not?

Let's say you have a simple issue with 2 sides. Each side has 5 pieces of data. 

In one debate, side 1 presents all their data and side 2 claims it is all biased and should be thrown out. Similarly, side 1 denies side 2 any of their data. The debate ends uselessly with no data. (You can see the value of throwing out data to a side that has less data than the other, but that's another story).

If instead we say that all data can be considered (but assume to be somewhat flawed), at least now when side 1 and side 2 take the average effect of all of their combined data it is possible that something can be learned or progress can be made.

Moral of the story - Don't throw data out. Add your own. If you're not interested in looking it up yourself that's a solid sign you're also not willing to add to the debate (which is totally ok, btw).

I was going to say, the only way truth can be misleading is if it's incomplete.  If you don't have apples to apples data, and all of it, we are just pissing into the wind.

How about this, I'll keep mine, you don't have to have any, and we should enforce the laws we have, and punish the HELL out of those with illegal guns and doing illegal things.

Uvalde happened because local and federal people didn't do their jobs and enforce the rules already on the books not because of what's in my safe.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

I have never advocated for throwing out data. 
 

The statement was made "guns are the greatest threat to children", and assumed to be correct for many pages.  So, I dug into the facts of the study that suggested that particular statement.

I presented my position after looking at the study, and stated that I find that statement to be misleading, then showed the reasons why.  None of the people who had been using that statement provided any alternative supporting data.

In my opinion, the data that is being ignored is the data I presented (because it doesn't fit the narrative).  
 

I'd be happy to consider further data if someone wants to make the effort.  Until then, I stand by my assertion that the statement "guns are the greatest threat to children" is intentionally misleading.

I see no reason to throw it out, but it should be considered with the additional data I provided.

One additional note... the statistics and commentary are not the data.  The data is the data.  The statistics and commentary are just manipulations of the data.  The data includes information on both children and adults.  The statistics and commentary refer to the victims only as "children".  I don't have any problem throwing out statistics and commentary that distort the data.

In a relatively rare occurrence, a good guy with a gun was able to stop a mass shooter AND wasn't mistaken for the shooter and killed by responding LEOs!

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/19/us/eli-dicken-indiana-mall-shooting-bystander/index.html

Reasonable or not, 43 pages of content in such a short time is positively mind-numbing. 

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

Reasonable or not, 43 pages of content in such a short time is positively mind-numbing. 

Not as mind-numbing as the number of mass shootings over the same span.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

That's because it happened in 15 seconds. The GS was carrying under our new Constitutional Carry, and has had no formal training. He was able to engage a shooter that was using a rifle with a handgun from approximately 40 yards, placed 8 of 10 rds on the bad guy to neutralize the threat in 15 seconds. First officer was on scene 3 minutes after. 
 

he is literally everything that many in here have railed about. Unlicensed. Untrained. But one person with the will to help others can make a difference. 
 

im not the praying type but there are some in here, but if I did I'd pray for this young man to be ok mentally after such a l incident. He didn't ask to be put into a position to take another life, but in doing so he saved dozens of others. 
 

in a case like this you are your first responder. Police had a decent response time of about 3 minutes. A lot of damage can be done with a 6 shot revolver in 3 minutes when left alone among unarmed. I'm glad he ignored the malls suggestion to be unarmed. 

Javelin said:

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

Reasonable or not, 43 pages of content in such a short time is positively mind-numbing. 

Not as mind-numbing as the number of mass shootings over the same span.

Are we including the gang hits and drug involved shootings in this? Because that statement is very disingenuous at best and inflammatory at worse. Almost like you are, once again, trying to flare peoples emotions. We used to call that trolling back in the day. 

In reply to bobzilla :

Regardless of whether or not you think he's trolling, he has a point. Every day, an average of 106 die from gun violence (39 murders and 64 suicides) and 210 people are shot and survive. Those are pretty horrifying numbers and should make anyone give some serious thought to the the gun violence issue in America. 

We're the only developed nation with such a severe issue with gun violence. The sad thing is, I believe treating it is nearly impossible. First, the second you even bring up the topic some people absolutely lose their minds and start frothing at the mouth while screaming "from my coolllld dead hands!" and second, there are already so many guns in America it would be impossible to really do much. Then we have the issue that Americans for whatever reason just seem to think it's appropriate to deal with situations with a gun*. Also, far too many young white men getting into far-right extremist cults and committing mass shootings. It's a very multi-faceted problem, and I cannot think of a realistic solution. 

*asterisk because I'm one of these people. I concealed carry because our neighbor's boyfriend is a drug dealer that beats her and once threatened my wife. 

In reply to infinitenexus :

We've provided many times over the solutions. No one wants to do that. So we are here. murders and crimes are being committed by the same criminals over and over. Catch and Release. Almost all of the publicized shootings have been by people "known to authorities" and the proper actions THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO THEM were not taken. Follow the pricedures. Keep violent felons locked up. Murder rates and shootings go down. 

Suicides being counted as gun violence is berkeleying idiotic. Thats a seperate topic we also need to address. Why are people urning to suicide? Thats a mental health issue thats needed to be addressed for decades.

Why are violent felons being released? Lack of evidence? No desire to prosecute? Good lawyers? I highly doubt they are just being cast back into the chaos with reckless abandon as you seem to be insinuating. 

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

You would be wrong sadly. Released on lowered bonds, jail overcrowding, or just given an ankle monitor before their court appearance in 6-8 months. Then there's early release, sentence reduction etc. 

there's a reason 70+% of violent crime is being done by repeat offenders and it's not because I made up catch and release. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

Why are violent felons being released? Lack of evidence? No desire to prosecute? Good lawyers? I highly doubt they are just being cast back into the chaos with reckless abandon as you seem to be insinuating. 

You clearly do not live in CA(!)  It's not reckless abandon, but I think it's more based in highly naive ideology.  It's not as much of an issue with violent felons (they tend to get locked up), but more of an issue with those that are very much on the road to that (who will likely eventually be locked up once they kill someone).

The concept (as I understand) is that prison does no one good.  It has almost zero rehabilitation and in many cases actually makes people worse.  If you substitute prison with actual rehabilitation, things will be much better.  The problem is, there is an almost complete lack of effective rehabilitation programs, so the program is more of "lets give them a chance", which results in "just let them go and trust in their good nature"....  clearly, that just result is just letting them out to do whatever they want.

There also seems to be a ass backwards attempt to prove the concept that a society with fewer people in prison is a better society.... which is very much true... unless you are just emptying the prisons, or just not prosecuting crimes, then you are just making things way worse.  (A society is crime free... if everything is legal!)

Even with effective programs, the lack of the threat of prison, give almost zero motivation for anyone to enter a program.  There is even a trend for zero bail, which results in what is effectively "catch and release", and a perception (on both ends) that they are not being punished at all.

No, I am not trolling, I am 100% serious.

June 1 - Tulsa, OK - A gunman legally purchased weapons and killed 4 in a hospital before committing suicide.

June 9 - Smithsburg, MD - A manufacturing employee with no record used his legal firearm on break to kill 3 and would 3 other coworkers.

June 30 - Allen, KY - A gunman with legal firearms opened fire from his home on approaching officers who were there to arrest him for domestic violence, killing three of them and a K9.

July 3 - Surprise, AZ - A neighbor was invited over for a cookout and 15 minutes after sitting down to eat with no warning, stood up and fatally shot 2 people and wounded 2 others before being killed in return.

July 4 - Highland Park, IL - A gunman legally purchased weapons and killed 7 at a parade, wounding dozens.

July 4 - Oakland, CA - 5 people at an MLB game were injured from bullets shot in to the air during fireworks.

July 17 - Greenwood, IN - A gunman legally purchased weapons and killed 2 and injured at least 2 others before being killed himself in a shopping mall.

aircooled said:

 

The concept (as I understand) is that prison does no one good.  It has almost zero rehabilitation and in many cases actually makes people worse.  If you substitute prison with actual rehabilitation, things will be much better.  

This is an excellent point. If you look at Norwegian prisons, the prisoners are treated like actual human beings and given lots of effective rehabilitation. Their repeat offender rate is very low. American prisons, on the other hand, are very low on rehabilitation and very high on sexual assault and general violence. Plus, when you get out, it can be extremely difficult to find any place that will hire you. It's a vicious cycle, and a hard one to break out of.

In reply to bobzilla :

Okay, so let's lock everyone up. That will reduce gang violence, although our prisons wouldn't be able to handle that many people, and there will still be a large amount of mass shootings in this country, far more than any other place in the world. It's not just felons and repeat offenders committing all these shootings. That's one of the big problems here. We have a large number of young men, often ages 18-25, that fall into extremist beliefs, legally buy guns, and shoot up schools and public places. Check what Javelin just posted above me. It's a serious problem.

In reply to Javelin :

July 20 a gunman with legal weapons was firing at cars from a tree line on his property for an hour before being apprehended in his home after a standoff. Three miles from my house on my road that I travel every day. Luckily 4 of my 5 children and 4 of my 5 grandchildren are with my wife and I in Virginia. 

QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:

In reply to Javelin :

July 20 a gunman with legal weapons was firing at cars from a tree line on his property for an hour before being apprehended in his home after a standoff. Three miles from my house on my road that I travel every day. Luckily 4 of my 5 children and 4 of my 5 grandchildren are with my wife and I in Virginia. 

Holy crap man! I am glad you are all safe.

In reply to infinitenexus :

Jails are often referred to as finishing school for felons. 

infinitenexus said:

aircooled said:

 

The concept (as I understand) is that prison does no one good.  It has almost zero rehabilitation and in many cases actually makes people worse.  If you substitute prison with actual rehabilitation, things will be much better.  

This is an excellent point. If you look at Norwegian prisons, the prisoners are treated like actual human beings and given lots of effective rehabilitation. Their repeat offender rate is very low. American prisons, on the other hand, are very low on rehabilitation and very high on sexual assault and general violence. Plus, when you get out, it can be extremely difficult to find any place that will hire you. It's a vicious cycle, and a hard one to break out of.

So, you are saying that we should send all of our our felons to Norway? Or are you saying we need more ethnic Norwegians to immigrate here?

In reply to AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) :

Neither, I'm saying we should focus on rehabilitation. Furthermore, we should focus on keeping people out of jail/prison, preventing the problems altogether.