Congress gets confused, thinks it's Parliament

But caribou are delicious

If people ate caribou regularly, I guarantee that they would never be in danger of extinction. Just imagine how many cows we kill.

Why don't we leave our oil in the ground until the Middle East is completely tapped out? Then, when they're begging at our door stop for oil, food, and maybe some civilization...we'll sell it to them...at 100X the price they charged us.

Tearing up our country to avoid doing some R&D on alternative energy or for the perceived comfort of an SUV isn't a viable long term solution.

Change isn't a bad thing. We, "we" meaning the country as a whole, are against it now because our population is older. As people get older they are more resistant to change.

Were not against change. Were against spending more money to get the same exact thing.

Salanis wrote: I love talking to my grandfather about this. He was on the House Energy Committee back in something like '78. They developed a plan for more sustainable energy use, that got completely ignored as soon as it left the Committee. He loves to go on whenever he hears people in congress talking about energy policy.

And when the great ronnie RayGun took office, he killed off these programs/policies/ so forth

neon4891 wrote:

Salanis wrote: I love talking to my grandfather about this. He was on the House Energy Committee back in something like '78. They developed a plan for more sustainable energy use, that got completely ignored as soon as it left the Committee. He loves to go on whenever he hears people in congress talking about energy policy.

And when the great ronnie RayGun took office, he killed off these programs/policies/ so forth

No, the House just didn't give a damn about a long-term energy plan.

biggest problem i see with both energy plans is.. neither work on the consumption problem in the country... STOP buying bigger crap than you need.

there solved.

ignorant wrote: biggest problem i see with both energy plans is.. neither work on the consumption problem in the country... STOP buying bigger crap than you need. there solved.

Against the basic philosophy that makes us great.

oldsaw wrote:

confuZion3 wrote:

doitover wrote: It's just dumb on so many levels. Drilling off shore isn't going to bring oil prices down any time soon. As Obama said recently, the US would save more oil if everyone kept their tires inflated than there is to be had off shore. If they wanted to affect oil prices tomorrow they would approve selling from the reserve but the GOP blocked that. Not that I'm really against drilling off shore, just don't claim it solves a problem it doesn't.

You're right. There won't be any short-term effects (other than the possible deflation caused by speculation). However, President Clinton decided that drilling in ANWR was not a good solution to anything in the short-term 10 years ago when gas was $1.50 a gallon. Well, we sure would be better-off today wouldn't we? Along those lines, would doing nothing today be better than doing something today that will pay off in two to five years? I'm still a huge proponent of alternative energy: and not just the temporary let's pollute a bit less by using different hydrocarbons. That's great for the next few years. But I want electricity to power my car, I want that electricity to come from the sun, wind, water, or nuclear fusion, and I want to start doing something now to get us there. Has anyone looked at Pickens' plan? He is going to push it hard as soon as whatever president we vote for gets into office. He has some pretty ambitious goals, but they look attainable in the near future at a really reasonable cost. Not to mention, all of the money that will be used to develop his plan will go right into the pockets of American companies and workers (better than the trillions of dollars that are going to leave our shores in the next few years that are going toward paying for gold palaces, Silver Audis (the metal, not just the color), and luxury under-water hotels.

Where/when have Republicans or the Bush administration claimed off-shore drilling "solves" the oil supply problem, let alone immediately? Their proposals include further development of alternate energy sources, even those that are not yet financially viable in a free-market economy. Tapping domestic oil resources should be recognized as a stop-gap measure and one that is only a component of any proposed energy plan. Seems like it's the drilling part that irks the Dems, as they are determined to wean the country away from fossil-fuels without much regard to the cost and consequences and push that agenda with no shame. In regards to Pickens' proposals, here's a link to an opinion-piece that takes exception to his ideas: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,395304,00.html For any of you who refuse to read it because of the source -

Wow! i just read the T. Boon thing. I knew that guy had some kind of angle, because their is no long term money to be made in wind power, but getting TX to give him eminent domain powers so he can buy up water supply rights and then sell it back to Dallas, THAT is some slick maneuvering.

MrJoshua wrote:

ignorant wrote: biggest problem i see with both energy plans is.. neither work on the consumption problem in the country... STOP buying bigger crap than you need. there solved.

Against the basic philosophy that makes us great.

Change will happen. Get on the positive side of it or let that steam roller flatten you.

We are going to change whether we like it or not. Drilling for more oil isn't going to save us from the inevitable.

T. Boon is ballsy, but are there any other plans this, thouroghly, developed?

MrJoshua wrote:

ignorant wrote: biggest problem i see with both energy plans is.. neither work on the consumption problem in the country... STOP buying bigger crap than you need. there solved.

Against the basic philosophy that makes us great.

America, berkeley yeah!

Xceler8x wrote:

MrJoshua wrote:

ignorant wrote: biggest problem i see with both energy plans is.. neither work on the consumption problem in the country... STOP buying bigger crap than you need. there solved.

Against the basic philosophy that makes us great.

Change will happen. Get on the positive side of it or let that steam roller flatten you. We are going to change whether we like it or not. Drilling for more oil isn't going to save us from the inevitable.

So we are going to change into a country of people that dont desire possesions? Bahahahahahaahahahahahahaha!

MrJoshua wrote:

Xceler8x wrote:

MrJoshua wrote:

ignorant wrote: biggest problem i see with both energy plans is.. neither work on the consumption problem in the country... STOP buying bigger crap than you need. there solved.

Against the basic philosophy that makes us great.

Change will happen. Get on the positive side of it or let that steam roller flatten you. We are going to change whether we like it or not. Drilling for more oil isn't going to save us from the inevitable.

So we are going to change into a country of people that dont desire possesions? Bahahahahahaahahahahahahaha!

"In place of old wants, satisfied by the productions of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes."

And so on and so forth until the end of time. To claim otherwise is to entertain a Marxian fantasy of epic proportions.

Xceler8x wrote: Why don't we leave our oil in the ground until the Middle East is completely tapped out?

I think if we wait until the Middle East is dried up we are completely berkeleyed.

Just imagine a bakery stockpiling ingredients during a major food shortage. As soon as all the other places are out of food, it opens up and says that if will charge whatever it wants for its bread. In this situation, would people politely wait in line with their money at the door?

Whenever there's a major shortage of something, it seems like people leave civility at the door and the mob mentality takes over. Just imagine a grocery store when a hurricane is threatening, or heck, a toy store with whatever toy is "in" at Christmas season. Except in this place replace people with countries.

As I wrote in a comment to the Letters to the Editor section of my local daily newspaper...

"LET'S DRILL EVERYWHERE." Of course, without new refineries, there won't be anyplace to turn all this oil into gasoline, but let's just get out there and drill. Another person wrote in wondering why the oil companies are sitting on the many leases they have tied up at the moment...seems like a good question. In my home state of Pa. there is currently a big amount of speculation by folks as to how much the gas rights to their land might be worth. It seems the whole state, or at least the northeastern corner (believes) it is sitting on a vast untapped reserve of gas and the lawyers are getting rich advising folks on how to make the most money when negotiating their mineral rights. Even my hometown is going to sell the right to drill on ALL municipal land...even parks. It sort of reminds me of that SIMPSON'S episode where oil is discovered under the school.

Osterkraut wrote:

MrJoshua wrote:

Xceler8x wrote:

MrJoshua wrote:

ignorant wrote: biggest problem i see with both energy plans is.. neither work on the consumption problem in the country... STOP buying bigger crap than you need. there solved.

Against the basic philosophy that makes us great.

Change will happen. Get on the positive side of it or let that steam roller flatten you. We are going to change whether we like it or not. Drilling for more oil isn't going to save us from the inevitable.

So we are going to change into a country of people that dont desire possesions? Bahahahahahaahahahahahahaha!

"In place of old wants, satisfied by the productions of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes." And so on and so forth until the end of time. To claim otherwise is to entertain a Marxian fantasy of epic proportions.

laugh all you want.. everyone knows that reduction in demand is the only long term plan that really will work. Most alternatives just trade one overt bad thing for a slightly less overt but more dispersed bad thing.

With all due respect, Ignorant and Xceler8x, I think I remember that you are both young men. While I do not disagree with you, you should take a look at some of the headlines, articles, and debates from the late '70's and early '80's.

I realize all you may remember is conspicuous consumption, but the debates we are currently having are ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL to those of that period.

The crises the led to over-reaction, a terrible economy, then set the stage for first Carter then Reagan. Regardless of what you think about these 2 presidents, they represent complete polar opposites in plan and direction, which evidences to me that the American people had no idea what they wanted.

Next came a return to 20 years worth of expansion of the same conspicuous consumption thinking that had existed prior to the late '70's.

So hear we are, right back where we started.

I respectfully submit that we, as Americans, will not change. We will only act in varying degrees of stupid.

I'm amazed how black and white it always is.

Drill or no drill, alternative fuels or not, etc.

A comprehensive plan will include ALL options. We need to pursue as many different angles at the same time as we are capable of. Short term, long term, etc.

They problem is that we are stonewalling ourselves with our own indecisiveness.

Sure there's inadequate drilling or refineries. Why? Because we ran amuck with our over-emphasis on environmentalism. Sure there's inadequate alternative technologies. Why? Because we abandoned the initiatives of the '80's a ssoon as our economy strengthened.

Gotta do it all.

Its a valid point...

I don't know if the global warming deal was thrown in at the same time, but Thats what drives me. We've totallly screwed this place up and need to fix it.

Though I will say, like father like son.. My dad was financing and setting up builders to do solar homes when he was my age. And today he still believes the morons with big homes are ruining our world.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/registry.html?ie=UTF8&type=wishlist&id=29GFT90FIBH0I

check out my reading list.. that'll let you know alittle about where my motivation and ideas lie..

SVreX wrote: Sure there's inadequate alternative technologies. Why? Because we abandoned the initiatives of the '80's a ssoon as our the price of oil dropped and we got lazy.

fixed it.

I personally built the passive solar house that I live in, under a program that Jimmy Carter started when he was POTUS.

RR killed that program as soon as he became Grand Wizard.

I went to college under a wonderful program that helped sponsor poor inter-city and rural children. It was called "Upward Bound. It was particularly helpful to those kids with health issues (like me). I've been a teacher now for over 35 years and I've seen this program do enormous good. W's "No Rich White Christian Child Left Behind" program killed it.

As the great Tip O' Neill said: "All Politics Is Local". These issues of energy efficient housing and progressive education are personal and local to me. I very much come from a working class background. And I consider myself a patriot (though I don't think I've ever worn a lapel pin flag).

At this point, I'd vote for my cat before I'd vote for anyone from The Grand Old Plutocrats.

As for drilling and related stuff (sources cited*):

Bush Administration’s Own Energy Information Agency Found Outer Continental Shelf Drilling Would Have No Significant Impact on Gas Prices “The projections in the OCS access case indicate that access to the Pacific, Atlantic, and eastern Gulf regions would not have a significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices before 2030… Because oil prices are determined on the international market, however, any impact on average wellhead prices is expected to be insignificant.” [Energy Information Administration, 2007]

On President Bush’s Watch, Offshore Drilling Has Increased, But the Price of Gas Has Skyrocketed. The number of offshore drilling permits issued and wells have increased dramatically from 3,000 permits and wells in 2000 to nearly 8,000 permits and 6,000 wells by 2006. Over the same time period gas prices have skyrocketed from $1.25 per gallon in January 2000 to over $4 per gallon today. [Bureau of Land Management, answers to questions submitted 3/1/07; EIA Historical Data]

Just 21 Percent of Outer Continental Shelf Leases Are in Production. There are 7,740 active leases in the outer continental shelf and only 1,655 are in production. [Department of Interior]

Just 19 Percent of Outer Continental Shelf Acres Under Lease Are Producing. There are over 41,000,000 acres in the outer continental shelf have been leased for oil drilling, yet only 8,123,000 acres are in production. 33 Million Outer Continental Shelf Acres Under Lease Are NOT Being Drilled. There are 33 million acres of the federal OCS lands that are under lease but are not producing. [Department of Interior]

Of 45.5 Million Acres of Federal Lands Leased to Oil and Gas Companies, 31 Million Acres Are Not Producing. There are 45.5 million acres of federal onshore lands currently leased by the oil and gas industry—but there are over 31 million acres not producing. [Department of Interior]

79 Percent of Recoverable Offshore Oil Is Open to Drilling. Currently 79 percent of America’s technically recoverable offshore oil reserves are open for leasing, while just 21 percent are closed to drilling. [Minerals Management Service, 2006]

82 Percent of Recoverable Offshore Natural Gas Is Open to Drilling. Currently 82 percent of America’s technically recoverable offshore natural gas reserves are open for leasing, while just 18 percent are closed to drilling. [Minerals Management Service, 2006]

On President Bush’s Watch, Big Oil Companies Have Made More Than $600 Billion in Profits. Since 2001, the major oil companies have amassed close to $600 billion in profits and they have used those excessive profits to purchase approximately $185 billion on stock buybacks rather than making serious and significant investments in clean alternative fuels, new refinery capacity and utilization, and renewable forms of electricity. [Based on ExxonMobil, Shell, BP, ChevronTexaco, and ConocoPhillips annual company financial reports for 2000-2008]

On President Bush’s Watch, Big Oil Has Failed to Invest in Refineries Allowing Refinery Utilization and Capacity to Fall from 93 Percent to 89 Percent. Since 2001, the Big Oil companies have failed to adequately invest in new refinery capacity and utilization and which has resulted in a reduction of refinery utilization and capacity from 93 percent to 89 percent. [Energy Information Administration]

aeronca65t wrote: On President Bush’s Watch, Big Oil Companies...have used those excessive profits to purchase...stock buybacks rather than making serious and significant investments in clean alternative fuels...

So, part of your point is that we should be upset that oil companies haven't invested in alternatives to oil?

SVreX wrote:

aeronca65t wrote: On President Bush’s Watch, Big Oil Companies...have used those excessive profits to purchase...stock buybacks rather than making serious and significant investments in clean alternative fuels...

So, part of your point is that we should be upset that oil companies haven't invested in alternatives to oil?

Oil companies certainly invest in alternative energies, but until they are financially viable they won't be introduced into the market unless they are profitable.

Aeronca65t believes Big Oil makes "excessive" profits and places the blame accordingly. But, Big Oil takes home seven to nine cents for every dollar it spends while Big Government takes over forty cents for each profit dollar Big Oil generates.

Big Oil uses its' profits to find, pump and refine more oil, in the interest of paying-back the investors who make their operations possible. Big Government takes over six times that from Big Oil. The ROI for Big Oil is less that that of Big Pharmaceuticals, Big Banks, Big Financial Services, Big IT, Big Telecom and Big Food.

Everyone eats, uses a bank, talks on a phone, takes medicine and most use computers. Why isn't anyone beetching about excessive profits in those areas?

It seems that Big Government uses Big Oil as a convenient scapegoat, deflecting the accountability issue away from the main culprit.

Um, it ain't Big Government bitching about oil profits. It's Big Media. Gotta keep the crap stirred up to sell papers (delivered with oil byproducts, BTW).

Last quarter, ExxonMobil made 11.7 billion on gross sales of 160 billion, or about 7.3 percent net. If our service department made only 7.3 percent net, a certain well known race team owner would send his minions down to shake us up.

But of course Big Media screams '11.7 BILLION DOLLARS PROFIT! CHEATING BASTARDS! TAR AND FEATHER THEM!'