Some seriously pissed Muslims.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/police-search-for-two-brothers-in-massive-french-manhunt-on-mourning-day/2015/01/08/8a33f6a8-96b7-11e4-8005-1924ede3e54a_story.html
Seems most of them are dead now.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/french-authorities-say-suspects-stole-car/2015/01/09/380eaa38-9795-11e4-aabd-d0b93ff613d5_story.html?hpid=z1
They wanted to die to become martyrs, but why is the path to that killing innocents?
I think the French have handled this relatively well though.
This is total news to me and perhaps I’m misunderstanding something but apparently there are several hundred locations in France that are classified as “no-go” zones meaning that only Muslims, not even the police, are allowed to enter.
Can somebody substantiate or disclaim this for me please.
Guess these guys kinda missed the part of the Koran that tells them that killing innocents kinda detracts from their martyr status...
Ahh well, they're worm food now, good riddance!
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3305/france-no-go-zones
This is the least OVERTLY CONSERVATIVE/unbiased source I found.
Just getting that out of the way, as I consider myself a conservative individual. Interesting to note (and is noted in many articles pertaining to this), you'll never see mention of this stuff on more liberal leaning sites or news organizations.
a classic from the Onion archives that fits this situation:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/god-angrily-clarifies-dont-kill-rule,222/
I'm the kind of guy who never misses the chance to make a joke about the French, but they deserve our sympathy and support.
Je suis Charlie.
novaderrik wrote: a classic from the Onion archives that fits this situation: http://www.theonion.com/articles/god-angrily-clarifies-dont-kill-rule,222/
Nice share. Thanks. Whatever happened to "Sticks and stones..."?
David S. Wallens wrote:novaderrik wrote: a classic from the Onion archives that fits this situation: http://www.theonion.com/articles/god-angrily-clarifies-dont-kill-rule,222/Nice share. Thanks. Whatever happened to "Sticks and stones..."?
followers of a certain prophet never got that memo..
Glad it has finally come to a close. From what I read the whole city of Paris including the outer beltway has been locked down for days. Only positive here is how it seems to give the normal muslim folks the chance to publicly denounce the violence.
RX Reven' wrote: This is total news to me and perhaps I’m misunderstanding something but apparently there are several hundred locations in France that are classified as “no-go” zones meaning that only Muslims, not even the police, are allowed to enter. Can somebody substantiate or disclaim this for me please.
Yes, but don't feel too sorry for the French in terms of these "slums". They are effectively of their own creation. They imported a bunch of cheap labor, enjoyed that benefit, and are now stuck with a large population of un-employed foreigners and native born foreigners (not sure what that works in France) who are now rather pissed of about living in squalor (and I suspect being seen as a lesser person by a good percentage of the population little chance of changing that).
As with most all if these "issues" if they had good jobs (or jobs at all really) they would likely be less of a problem. It's really very similar to other areas of the world with similar issues.
As far as how they act out, that of course is a whole other "issue" which stacks nicely on the first one.
Here is an article on the slums from 10 years ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/11/world/europe/11iht-paris.html?pagewanted=all
Here is another one from over 10 years ago talking about the situation:
Something a friend of mine was telling me. He is a native german, from Cologne, living here with his wife and children in the US. If you are not german by blood (meaning one of your parents had to be a german citizen) you cannot become a german citizen.
As he told me, there are third and fourth generation Turks living in Germany, their parents and grandparents were born and raised in Germany and all they know is the German culture and in some cases, language, who are not German and if they break any laws, will get deported to Turkey.
He does not agree with that, but there is little anybody can do to change the law. A lot of Europe is like that
So aircooled, let me get this straight; its France's fault these people are poor and destitute? Because that is what the people in the article say.
If they moved once, they can move again. Life sucks, but if you choose to accept living in squalor, why should someone give you something for nothing?
No E36 M3 the one kid got hit by the police, he threw rocks at them (thats assault). Could you imagine if police were throwing rocks at them?
Society and prosperity is a two way street. These people are clearly freeloaders.
mad_machine wrote: Something a friend of mine was telling me. He is a native german, from Cologne, living here with his wife and children in the US. If you are not german by blood (meaning one of your parents had to be a german citizen) you cannot become a german citizen. As he told me, there are third and fourth generation Turks living in Germany, their parents and grandparents were born and raised in Germany and all they know is the German culture and in some cases, language, who are not German and if they break any laws, will get deported to Turkey. He does not agree with that, but there is little anybody can do to change the law. A lot of Europe is like that
German citizenship is passed on on the father side only. If your dad is German, then you can get it but not from your mother is German and your father is not.
That is what I suspect. Wikipedia says:
Children born in France to tourists or short-term visitors do not acquire French citizenship by virtue of birth in France: residency must be proven. Since immigration became increasingly a political theme in the 1980s, albeit accompanied by a lower immigration rate (see Demographics in France), both left-wing and right-wing governments have issued several laws restricting the possibilities of being naturalized.
HiTempguy wrote: So aircooled, let me get this straight; its France's fault these people are poor and destitute? Because that is what the people in the article say... ...These people are clearly freeloaders.
I don't think "fault" is the right word here (especially in regards to their actions), but the situation was clearly setup (or at least terribly mismanaged) by the French. They brought them there with the promise of jobs / work with clearly no plan for when the jobs dried up (e.g. deport them, round them up and shoot them, etc).
If you read one of those articles, it also talks about the French criminal justice systems tendency to think of criminals as being more of the result of issues with the state rather then the person is not helping (which is a bit ironic considering the above).
As far as freeloaders, I cannot say. Would they work if there were jobs for them? I don't know. I would hope so, but I suspect the longer they go without them, the less likely they are want to work (learned helplessness). Clearly this has been going on for a while with little hope of change in sight. Heck, I wonder if they could even deport the native born. Are they even citizens of any country?
But what is the problem to which these housing projects, known as cités, are the solution, conceived by serene and lucid minds like Le Corbusier’s? It is the problem of providing an Habitation de Loyer Modéré—a House at Moderate Rent, shortened to HLM—for the workers, largely immigrant, whom the factories needed during France’s great industrial expansion from the 1950s to the 1970s, when the unemployment rate was 2 percent and cheap labor was much in demand. By the late eighties, however, the demand had evaporated, but the people whose labor had satisfied it had not; and together with their descendants and a constant influx of new hopefuls, they made the provision of cheap housing more necessary than ever.
Indeed, French youth unemployment is among the highest in Europe—and higher the further you descend the social scale, largely because high minimum wages, payroll taxes, and labor protection laws make employers loath to hire those whom they cannot easily fire, and whom they must pay beyond what their skills are worth. Everyone acknowledges that unemployment, particularly of the permanent kind, is deeply destructive, and that the devil really does find work for idle hands; but the higher up the social scale you ascend, the more firmly fixed is the idea that the labor-market rigidities that encourage unemployment are essential both to distinguish France from the supposed savagery of the Anglo-Saxon neo-liberal model (one soon learns from reading the French newspapers what anglo-saxon connotes in this context), and to protect the downtrodden from exploitation. But the labor-market rigidities protect those who least need protection, while condemning the most vulnerable to utter hopelessness: and if sexual hypocrisy is the vice of the Anglo-Saxons, economic hypocrisy is the vice of the French.
Indeed, French youth unemployment is among the highest in Europe—and higher the further you descend the social scale, largely because high minimum wages, payroll taxes, and labor protection laws make employers loath to hire those whom they cannot easily fire, and whom they must pay beyond what their skills are worth. Whether France was wise to have permitted the mass immigration of people culturally very different from its own population to solve a temporary labor shortage and to assuage its own abstract liberal conscience is disputable: there are now an estimated 8 or 9 million people of North and West African origin in France, twice the number in 1975—and at least 5 million of them are Muslims. Demographic projections (though projections are not predictions) suggest that their descendants will number 35 million before this century is out, more than a third of the likely total population of France.
(continued from above, highlighted for emphasis)
Indisputably, however, France has handled the resultant situation in the worst possible way. Unless it assimilates these millions successfully, its future will be grim. But it has separated and isolated immigrants and their descendants geographically into dehumanizing ghettos; it has pursued economic policies to promote unemployment and create dependence among them, with all the inevitable psychological consequences; it has flattered the repellent and worthless culture that they have developed; and it has withdrawn the protection of the law from them, allowing them to create their own lawless order.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html
Clearly, this article is not the end all argument on the subject, but it certainly reads as reasonable.
In case you are interested in who the author is (in case you worry he is some kind of pundit, as I always do): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Dalrymple
You know, Im a big enough man to admit when I am wrong, and I assumed a lot about your position.
Fundamentally, I agree with everything you said.
I just have a hard time feeling like these people were "conned" if that makes sense. I've had people promise me the moon before; if it didn't pan out, lesson learned and I get back on the horse.
I do not take issue with these people's plight, it is serious. I only take issue with them (possibly) not doing anything about it.
"Help me help you!" And "you can lead a horse to water"
That is the question that is not really answered in the article, or anywhere, what CAN they (the immigrants that is) do about it?
Can they return to their countries (I suspect they are as bad as the slums). Can they go to another country (they probably don't want them or have jobs for them). There doesn't appear to be any options within the country currently (assuming they aren't "helpless" yet, but they were brought there because they want to work, at least the original ones).
It may be as they say in Wargames: "The only way to win the game is not to play" and France is already playing.
Here is a bit from the end of the article. Remember, this was written in 2002! I find this a VERY good explination of this common "issue".
But among the third of the population of the cités that is of North African Muslim descent, there is an option that the French, and not only the French, fear. For imagine yourself a youth in Les Tarterets or Les Musiciens, intellectually alert but not well educated, believing yourself to be despised because of your origins by the larger society that you were born into, permanently condemned to unemployment by the system that contemptuously feeds and clothes you, and surrounded by a contemptible nihilistic culture of despair, violence, and crime. Is it not possible that you would seek a doctrine that would simultaneously explain your predicament, justify your wrath, point the way toward your revenge, and guarantee your salvation, especially if you were imprisoned? Would you not seek a “worthwhile” direction for the energy, hatred, and violence seething within you, a direction that would enable you to do evil in the name of ultimate good? It would require only a relatively few of like mind to cause havoc. Islamist proselytism flourishes in the prisons of France (where 60 percent of the inmates are of immigrant origin), as it does in British prisons; and it takes only a handful of Zacharias Moussaouis to start a conflagration.
He seems to have hit the nail on the head. France isn't the only place to do that, though. Isn't there a long and ugly story surrounding what became known as the "Projects" in the States?
I don't know what the solution is, and the problem is likely to stay around for a while- probably get worse, as well paying labour jobs keep being exported, or taken over by robotics, or eliminated by efficiencies...Idle hands are the devils playground, they say.
My understanding is that a lot has changed in the last decade since those were written though. Several things that are meant to actually help everyone IIRC.
I'm as sorry as the next guy about the poor conditions that certain groups find themselves living in. But their solution of dragging the entire world down to their religious (intolerant of any other) system by terrorism and brainwashing puts me off.
Unfortunately the forces of civilization (as John Stewart put it) espouse a belief of tolerance and inclusion. When it comes down to it in a war of ideology when one side says "can't we all just get along" while the other says "believe as I believe or I'll kill you in the name of my god", we have a disaster in the making coming out way.
What's the solution? People keep breeding, religious zealouts keep proselytizing. At some point in my children's lives will they either convert to Islam of find themselves in a shooting war over ideology?
'The devil finds work for idle hands.' With nothing to do all day they certainly have the opportunity to get into trouble. As far as deporting them, if these people go back to the Middle East they will face the same problems: no jobs, nothing to do, thus back to trouble. I have no idea what to do about them and I bet the French don't either.
To create 'no go' zones where the police won't go is bad news. That happens on a small scale here in the States, or at least it used to: the dope dealers made it so dangerous in areas around here the cops wouldn't patrol after dark. It took some turf wars that eliminated some of the kingpins to fix that problem. Instead of dope dealers, these 'no go' zones are based on cultural and religious differences which will make them that much harder to deal with.
HiTempguy wrote: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3305/france-no-go-zones This is the least OVERTLY CONSERVATIVE/unbiased source I found. Just getting that out of the way, as I consider myself a conservative individual. Interesting to note (and is noted in many articles pertaining to this), you'll never see mention of this stuff on more liberal leaning sites or news organizations.
I don't find this shocking, what I find shocking is peoples ignorance of it. I am contantly dumbfounded by American's lack of world knowledge, views.. etc..
I've been to paris. You don't go to certain areas, beggars are everywhere and federal police with assault rifles(always in pairs) and bomb sniffing dogs patrol the train stations. Still I felt safer there than in Philly when I grew up.
Remember these dudes had been fighting the Basque Sepertatists for years and also some random Breton seperatitis.. Since the recession of the IRA, France is Terror central in europe.
EDIT: I mistyped Breton above and spelled it Briton. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_Revolutionary_Army
iadr wrote: ..Shows France as being a bit more of an economic player than many would think.
Unfortunately France makes a bit of it's money selling weapons to countries that the US won't sell to. They are currently in a deal to sell Russia amphibious assault ships.... nice. I suspect the US buys some of there stuff so we can learn how to blow it up when we run into it.
In reply to aircooled:
France, Germany, Russia and China all make tons of money by selling weaponry and technology to players on the US's bad-actor list.
Their opposition to US activities in the Middle East have been more economically motivated than the ideological arguments that have been touted as the "real" reason.
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