I have a moral, or ethical question (sorry, no Amy content)

I'm going to try to explain this as best I can without giving anything away as I don't have a patent yet.
Ok, I have an idea for a product I can make and sell. I know there is a market, and I'm sure I could make dozens of dollars. It's a product that fills a need. The thing is, I only know of this need because of where I work, and my current employer (and their competitors) are the most logical customers for said product (that's easier than getting to the end-users). If I develop this product, get a patent, and make some working prototypes (I'll be building my first prototype in a month or so) I'm afraid my employer would be quite bent out of shape since it is because of them employing me that I even know this issue exists.
I'm afraid that if I try to sell them the patent, or even start producing this myself and selling it to them that it might tick them off enough to move me out the door. Is that crazy to even worry about? I'm sorry if this is vague. I'll try to explain it a bit better. Let's say you work for Ford. You know their customers are happy with them, but would be even happier if every new Ford could, say, change radio stations and such with just a thought from the driver. You work for Ford and invent just such a device. Would that be too ballsy to go to your employer and sell them the idea that you wouldn't have if you didn't work for them?
And to answer the obvious question, I don't know if this product would make me enough money where leaving my current position wouldn't be an issue.
I gotta run back to work now, I rushed through this so it may not make total sense. I'll clarify when I can.

You should check all of the documents you signed at HR (no-compete and non-disclosure, etc.) - it's highly likely that your employer will own the patent regardless.

I'd think that will get you onto your employers' E36 M3 list, especially the idea of selling them yourself. In the tech industry some (shiny happy) employers specify in their contracts that anything you invent while employed with them belongs to them to prevent exactly this kind of thing from happening.

First concern would be your contract with work. It may be that they'll end up owning the patent and not you.

I see no moral qualms with this. Legally you may have some issues.

Actually, what you may want to do is form an LLC, and file the patent under that. Probably would provide you with some protection so it doesn't all go to the company.

Generally anything developed while you are working somewhere is owned by that company.

If you "think" of it there... then develop it somewhere else? Hmm...

I would suspect you may need to quite before doing any development. (not advice, just a guess)

Don't do any of the development work on company time or company IT equipment.

Maybe form a partnership with someone else and let them be the front man for the patent. Let them sell the product to your employer with you as a silent partner behind the scenes?

My father was a glass blower for GE. He invented a light bulb that wouldn't burn out, got a handshake and a wooden plaque.

Remember when you were young and hungry when you started here, should have read all that stuff you signed. Your million dollar idea is ours and we won't put it on the market. How we gonna sell more bulbs?

Dan

Step 1: check contract

Step 2: if contact allows for development, partner up.

Step 3: invent device, patent through an LLC, and have someone else front the business with you as a silent partner.

Step 4: profit (hopefully).

In reply to mtn:

this, LLC time. Also how much in sales, could you live on the income from it if sold only to your employers competitors? If so go for it, then if they show you the door, then later are at a competitive disadvantage as the competitors have the product, rake them over the coals on pricing hard enough that the HR department gets cleaned out, completely gutted. Make HR become the only more useless position in the world, drive them to become guidance counselors.

914Driver wrote: My father was a glass blower for GE. He invented a light bulb that wouldn't burn out, got a handshake and a wooden plaque. Remember when you were young and hungry when you started here, should have read all that stuff you signed. Your million dollar idea is ours and we won't put it on the market. How we gonna sell more bulbs? Dan

If it was an incandescent bulb design, that's no secret. One of the downsides is that the efficiency of that design is so bad that it makes regular incandescents look good. I think the famous Edison firehouse bulb was accidentally made this way.

I've spoken with several people who work at our local printer company (rhymes with Texmark) and many employees there have patents for new advances in printer technology. And for each one the company pays them something like $500.

Find someone unrelated to the company and let them front your idea. I'd think if you do it yourself you are opening yourself up to litigation.

Hmm, I don't think a company can go after you for your ideas, but I could be mistaken.

As someone else said, have somebody front it, you are a technical consultant that is brought on.

I dont think the intent is that they can limit YOUR THOUGHTS, but you can't use their resources.

We have a former higher up who is using our patented tech to develop competing products, then again, this is Canada so the protections probably aren't as draconian as the USA has.

Does it compete with your employers products?

Is the knowledge of the need that came from working for your employer, or the idea for the solution?

How did you get that knowledge? Was it from customer feedback, observations of the day to day operations, or other?

It may be worth gathering up your HR documents, your supporting docs for your idea, and spending some money for an hour or two of an attorneys time. That way you can be reasonably confident of patent ownership and any contract implications before moving forward.

Hopefully you will hear that you are legally clear to move forward.

But worst case, you may spend the money only to find out you are bound by contract and can't act on it, but that is much cheaper than acting on it an losing the idea and your job.

If the legal opinion is that it would be owned by the employer, then you can try to find the most advantageous way to propose it and get the recognition and hopefully some reward.

In reply to DrBoost:

Having been in that situation, the company owns the patents. It's in the contract I signed. There are people who generate 20 or so patents a year, but other than their names being on them, they don't own them.

If it's not related, I am allowed to ask to own the patent myself.

It all depends on the language in your no-compete. Some companies will try to take ANYTHING you patent while you are employed with them. I think it hinges on whether or not you worked on it while at work and whether or not it is a competitive product. I once worked for a company that had the stupidest no-compete I've ever seen. We didn't get it until we had been working there for 51 weeks. I called lawyer and he literally told me sign it, my job was not worth fighting over.

Even though you frame it as an ethical question, it's really a question only a lawyer can answer after reviewing the employment documents you signed.

Some companies like the "we own all your thoughts" approach, others the "if it's been developed on your own time and equipment, it's yours, on company time and equipment, we own it".

When it comes to your moral problem, I Say berkeley everyone else,but you need to take a look at the legal issues first as most have mentioned.

The contract will win. Ethically, I would consider whether the OP's idea is specific to implementation. If, for example, working for his employer, he learned that limiting side-fumbling is an industry-wide problem, and he developed a solution, then yes, I think he is clear.

On the other hand, if his employer's factory, the design of which is confidential, has a machine, custom made, that moves turbo encabulators from the third to seventh floor, and he has developed an oiler specific to that machine, then he is in a more questionable position taking the data and moving on. In this scenario, he is leveraging company confidential information to develop a product that itself may represent a disclosure of that company data.

Does your solution utilize confidential data, or did your job merely provide you insight into a broader problem that you then proceeded to solve?

Mike wrote: The contract will win. Ethically, I would consider whether the OP's idea is specific to implementation. If, for example, working for his employer, he learned that limiting side-fumbling is an industry-wide problem, and he developed a solution, then yes, I think he is clear.

It would be interesting to find a company that dealt with a solution that would be applicable industry wide. I would even more think they would fight to own that information so that they could licence it out to the industry.

Again, BTDT. My name is on it, but I don't own it.

My place says they own everything indurstry related while you work for them. If you want to develop an idea, you need Sr. exec blessing (it's still theirs too). You might get a small bonus. Even if it's unenforceable, it's enough of a deterrent

Two big direction questions in my book:

1. do you plan to keep working for your current employer, or will this be a big enough revenue stream that you go "out on your own"?
2. is there a way that both you and your employer can profit? (out on your own or not)

Here's the reasoning. If you are going out on your own, your employer will quickly become your competitor. May be good or bad. They may have 'ownership' of things you invent while you work for them, but they will never own the knowledge or experience you gain while working for them.

The second question might be something to strongly consider. If the opportunity is small, you might be able to get your current employer to back your idea and then give you a big bonus for increasing their bottom line. This is the kind of thing we are DYING to have employees bring up with management at our company, and we would gladly work a deal with an employee who chose to work with us vs slinging something behind our back. You may even be able to sell much more of your idea when you have the strength of an established company backing the product. Use the word "Innovation" and your managers/execs should start drooling.

If your company does not want to help sell your idea and work with you on the spoils, take that for what it is. I guarantee at least one company in your industry is looking to capitalize on its employees good ideas, and is willing to share the profits with its employees.

alfadriver wrote: Again, BTDT. My name is on it, but I don't own it.

But you still work for the company, correct? I think the OP is talking of quitting and going ahead, unless I am mistaken?

HiTempguy wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Again, BTDT. My name is on it, but I don't own it.

But you still work for the company, correct? I think the OP is talking of quitting and going ahead, unless I am mistaken?

I think you're mistaken. Re-read his first post.

DrBoost wrote: And to answer the obvious question, I don't know if this product would make me enough money where leaving my current position wouldn't be an issue.

HiTempguy- Boost does say he will not likely quit his job.

Even still- if it was clear that the idea was generated on the job, it's highly unlikely that they would let file for the patent after quitting. This was an idea that makes his current job or process or product better as it was observed as on the job work. Bear in mind, the area we live is a very patent obsessed area- there are 6 patent offices located around the US- one of them is in Detroit. If it's work related at all, the company will want to keep it- even if you quit.

BTW, we have an example of doing a non-industry related patent- Angry's idea was completely not automotive related, and he was able to get that done outside of the industry. I do know he worked in the industry for quite a long time, and I think when he and his friend came up with the idea- it was while he was working. So we've had an example of a non-related patent getting done and going off on their own.