Life is short. Are you reconciled with your Maker?

If I  offended anyone with how I stated my beliefs, I  apologize. It's sometimes hard to communicate online, because you can't see the other persons facial expression or hear the inflection in their voice. You just see cold hard words on a screen. I try not to come across as attacking anyone,  I  expect the same. I felt the conversion last night was starting to spiral out of control, so I stepped away.  I hope we can all be friends and agree to disagree. Some things You just can't talk about with some people. 

If Christianity seems illogical, but you can't help this nagging feeling that it might actually be true, I recommend reading C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity."

Toyman! said:

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

I have a very good friend who died as an atheist. He was the definition of a good man. Loved life and his fellow man. Part of me thinks God will recognize his own when the time comes just as Satan will recognize his. 

I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about and the first thing I thought of when he passed was that he was an atheist.  It made me very sad.  

Many religions have many of the same teachings, and "Treat each other well" is usually in there. The Egyptians believed that one's heart was weighed against a feather in judgement. Really, they're a framework on how to try a good life, so it's no surprise there is a lot of commonality between them.

From a non-believer standpoint, being ready to meet your maker and/or having a heart as light as a feather can mean:

1. Try to have as few regrets as you can. 
2. With people, try to repair relationships. It may not work, but putting in the effort on your side is what matters. You can't fix everybody.
3. Tell people you love them, and spend time with them when you can.
4. Be compassionate. Build a larger table when you can, and seat others at it. Be present for people that need help.
5. Be honest. Don't seek to gain advantage for yourself through dishonesty. Articulate your feelings without blaming others. 
6. Enjoy life! This ties back into all of the others. Do things you like, live will, treat others well. You'll wake up and go to bed every day happier than if you spend all of your time worrying about mistakes in the past or how you may have been rude to somebody because you're having a bad day.

This is by no means an exhaustive list. 

My uncle passed a few weeks back.  I'm a thousand miles away, and didn't see him that often. He had pancreatic cancer that was well advanced when he finally went in to a doctor. It was a terminal prognosis, the "get your affairs in order now" kind. We talked a bit, and I sent him a letter so he'd have something to hold in his hands and read about how much he influenced me and meant to me, even if we weren't in touch all the time.
I was unable to visit him to say good bye or attend the funeral for (reasons) that were beyond me.

I did the best I could with the first four items in my list.  I'm sad, but I have no regrets. 

I'll also add: The things I posted above become more important when you think it's your responsibility. No eternal reward, no external help, no forgiveness outside what you give yourself. Just imperfect people in an imperfect world trying to get through life. All we have are each other. 

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) :

That's a great list and really not that different than mine is. 

Edit to add: At the end of the day I think we, in the general sense of the word, have more in common than not. 

Edited again because I left out some rather important words. Now in bold.

spitfirebill said:

Toyman! said:

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

I have a very good friend who died as an atheist. He was the definition of a good man. Loved life and his fellow man. Part of me thinks God will recognize his own when the time comes just as Satan will recognize his. 

I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about and the first thing I thought of when he passed was that he was an atheist.  It made me very sad.  

Your reply just made me sad.

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) :

Thank You for posting that list. A good friend of mine always says, " The only thing You take out of this world is the relationship You have with people ".

spitfirebill said:

Toyman! said:

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

I have a very good friend who died as an atheist. He was the definition of a good man. Loved life and his fellow man. Part of me thinks God will recognize his own when the time comes just as Satan will recognize his. 

I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about and the first thing I thought of when he passed was that he was an atheist.  It made me very sad.  

I realize this is meant with care and love and I sincerely appreciate those sentiments.

But this attitude is exactly why many atheists feel that religious people are condescending at best, if not outright arrogant, in their belief that their belief should be everyone's belief.

The person who died was most likely happy and confident in their lack of religion.  Why is that not good enough?

In reply to Duke :

I started typing a very similar response, but figured why bother?

In reply to Duke :

It absolutely is good enough. 

That does not change the sadness that he may well be missing from the life ever after part of my beliefs. No arrogance or condescension, just sadness. 

Duke said:

spitfirebill said:

Toyman! said:

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

I have a very good friend who died as an atheist. He was the definition of a good man. Loved life and his fellow man. Part of me thinks God will recognize his own when the time comes just as Satan will recognize his. 

I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about and the first thing I thought of when he passed was that he was an atheist.  It made me very sad.  

I realize this is meant with care and love and I sincerely appreciate those sentiments.

But this attitude is exactly why many atheists feel that religious people are condescending at best, if not outright arrogant, in their belief that their belief should be everyone's belief.

The person who died was most likely happy and confident in their lack of religion.  Why is that not good enough?

 

The problem is that one of the most powerful tenets of Christianity is the Great Commission:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

This is something most Christians have wrestled deeply with, and ALL non-Christians are offended by.  Christians (like me) have been berkeleying it up for over 2000 years.

It doesn't actually say "Go and preach", it says "Go and make disciples".  That's hard to figure out how to do it.

Christians aren't born as Christians.  We come to a moment of decision that is difficult.  We are all brought to that moment by "being discipled", and we then have to figure out how to implement it in our own lives and try to disciple others.  Every single one of us messes it up.  We are not perfect, just forgiven.

I completely understand and respect how proselytizing bothers and offends people.  I try my hardest to do it in less offensive ways, and find that I am often so weak and diluted that the reality is that I am not making disciples.  I'm not even exhibiting my faith.  If there was a court trial there wouldn't be enough evidence to convict me of being a Christian.

Sharing belief is part of the calling to Christianity.  Its not a desire to offend or bludgeon people.  It's an honest sojourn and search for balance with our faith and with the world.  Most of us mess it up badly.

Try to understand that Christians are struggling with it too.  And failure to "make disciples" (whatever that means) is a failure of faith.  It feels like a failure to try to fulfill the Great Commission.

I try to "Preach the Gospel at all times, and only use words when necessary". I usually fall short.

In reply to SV reX :

I understand it's import to you, but excusing it by saying it's something ingrained in the belief is a cop out. Why does your "strong belief" override the opinion/feelings of those that do not have any interest? If I hold a "strong belief" about not eating meat, and feel it's my duty to judge you for eating meat, is that ok? I should keep calling you an animal murder even after you've asked me to stop, because it's my duty to change your mind?
 

In reply to Steve_Jones :

Steve, I haven't made any attempt to override you, your opinions, or your feelings. I haven't preached to you. 
 

You are welcome to your beliefs. And you are welcome to express them. Please don't attack me when I try to do the same. 
 

If you truly do not have any interest, then it doesn't make any sense to me why you are posting in this thread. There are lots of threads on GRM that I have no interest in. I never post in them. 
 

What would you like to accomplish?

Here's the joke I told last Sunday morning to my class:  

Guy asks - is these seat saved?

Me - no, but it's under conviction.

In reply to SV reX :

Where have I attacked you? I'm asking a genuine question. When does your need to preach override my wanting to hear it?

In reply to Steve_Jones :

Steve, no one is forcing this on you. No one is holding a gun to your head to make you click on the thread or read the words posted in it. 

Edit: Much like Z31maniac posted earlier when someone was preaching to him. You can close the door. 

You can feed your dog.

You can feed the good wolf.

You can feed the ducks at the lake.

But please don't feed the trolls.

SV reX said:

Duke said:

spitfirebill said:

Toyman! said:

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

I have a very good friend who died as an atheist. He was the definition of a good man. Loved life and his fellow man. Part of me thinks God will recognize his own when the time comes just as Satan will recognize his. 

I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about and the first thing I thought of when he passed was that he was an atheist.  It made me very sad.  

I realize this is meant with care and love and I sincerely appreciate those sentiments.

But this attitude is exactly why many atheists feel that religious people are condescending at best, if not outright arrogant, in their belief that their belief should be everyone's belief.

The person who died was most likely happy and confident in their lack of religion.  Why is that not good enough?

 

The problem is that one of the most powerful tenets of Christianity is the Great Commission:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

This is something most Christians have wrestled deeply with, and ALL non-Christians are offended by.  Christians (like me) have been berkeleying it up for over 2000 years.

It doesn't actually say "Go and preach", it says "Go and make disciples".  That's hard to figure out how to do it.

Christians aren't born as Christians.  We come to a moment of decision that is difficult.  We are all brought to that moment by "being discipled", and we then have to figure out how to implement it in our own lives and try to disciple others.  Every single one of us messes it up.  We are not perfect, just forgiven.

I completely understand and respect how proselytizing bothers and offends people.  I try my hardest to do it in less offensive ways, and find that I am often so weak and diluted that the reality is that I am not making disciples.  I'm not even exhibiting my faith.  If there was a court trial there wouldn't be enough evidence to convict me of being a Christian.

Sharing belief is part of the calling to Christianity.  Its not a desire to offend or bludgeon people.  It's an honest sojourn and search for balance with our faith and with the world.  Most of us mess it up badly.

Try to understand that Christians are struggling with it too.  And failure to "make disciples" (whatever that means) is a failure of faith.  It feels like a failure to try to fulfill the Great Commission.

I try to "Preach the Gospel at all times, and only use words when necessary". I usually fall short.

Thanks for posting the Great Commission. I struggle with it as well. 

As I've matured, the less I'm worried about what there is after death (although I'm not yet old enough to start worrying again). Whatever I believe won't change what is.

The way I should conduct myself, how I should treat others, and how I should strive to leave the world around me doesn't change whether there's a God, many gods, reincarnation, returning to the cosmic consciousness, or a void, or whatever.

Actions matter. Beliefs only matter when they guide actions.

I generally like all of you because we all strive to Be Excellent to each other and Party On! I mean, this group was like, "Hey Bill, you live in Hungary. Please take $65,000 to give to refugees. Thank you for using my money to help people."

Datsun310Guy said:

Here's the joke I told last Sunday morning to my class:  

Guy asks - is these seat saved?

Me - no, but it's under conviction.

 

Cool.  I'll have to remember that one. 

I wasn't sure if I wanted to post anything else in this thread because I'd rather talk about this kind of thing in person, but Steve's comments and some others hit on an interesting point. 

Why can't Christians just mind their own business, why isn't it enough to just be ok with other people believing what they want?

My quick and dirty summary:

So if all we get is this life on earth then absolutely: just find what makes you happy, try your best to treat people right, and do what you can to be satisfied with your time on earth.

But: if the Christian Bible is true, Jesus is who he said he is (Son of God/the only way to be right with God,) and eternity after we die is real... well then yes I'm going to want to tell people about my faith.  Because, from the perspective of eternity, I believe it matters way more than anything that can happen here in this life.  I try not to be annoying about it.  I'd rather share my story than tell someone why they are wrong but the message of Christianity sometimes pisses people off all by itself.

Doesn't mean I can't be a friend and do stuff with people who believe differently than I do though.

Anyway, that's all I've got.  Hard to sum up in a few words on a forum but I thought I should at least try. Same as Tuna said, I'd be more than willing to chat via pm

Duke said:

spitfirebill said:

Toyman! said:

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

I have a very good friend who died as an atheist. He was the definition of a good man. Loved life and his fellow man. Part of me thinks God will recognize his own when the time comes just as Satan will recognize his. 

I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about and the first thing I thought of when he passed was that he was an atheist.  It made me very sad.  

I realize this is meant with care and love and I sincerely appreciate those sentiments.

But this attitude is exactly why many atheists feel that religious people are condescending at best, if not outright arrogant, in their belief that their belief should be everyone's belief.

The person who died was most likely happy and confident in their lack of religion.  Why is that not good enough?

I don't get this. They aren't telling you to be sad about it, they are telling you how THEY feel. 

In reply to SV reX :

That is one of the, if not the, most introspective characterizations I've ever encountered on the matter. Thank you for sharing that deeply personal and well reasoned account.

There are posts saying "please ask questions" and when I do I get accused of attacking people, and no one answers the questions, so which is it? Ask or don't?