Schools, Shootings, Children and Adulthood

In reply to T.J. :

It’s. It not about Race!!!!  It’s about economic background!    legacies  admissions, endowment admissions. Connections admissions are all in the same economic class. Mostly the ubber  wealthy.  The tiny percentage of diversity means just that. They are different.  

If you look at the racial make up of the better colleges and university you will likely find a higher percentage of white students of wealth and privilege than poor people.  Yes even in that group there are people of color.  But diversity means they are admitted because they are different primarily in economic ways.

Yes white people of poor background are admitted if they are  capable of convincing the admissions boards they can add to the diversity in a very positive way.  The admission letter is the prime source of those admissions.  Perfect grades are not enough as I said. It’s petty much the story you can tell 

frenchyd said:

STM317 said:

93EXCivic said:

Second I don't buy the whole there is such a big culture difference in other countries that we can't look at them as inspiration. I lived in England for a short time, have visited 11 times and my dad is from there. I don't see the culture of England as all that different from the US. Sure there are differences but many of the problems I see mention in relation to mass shootings happen over there. They get the same movies, video games and music. There are broken homes. There is 24 hour media. There is a "PC movement". But yet they don't have mass shootings like we do. Two big differences I notice are the health care system and the lack of easy access of guns.

I don't think there's any question that access to guns makes doing terrible things easier. However, I think there are some pretty large cultural differences between the US and England, especially as it relates to firearms. Less than 250 years ago the US was born through forcefully declaring their independence, and then used guns to achieve that independence. England has never done that. The men who stood up to GB and fought are still hailed as heroes in our history books. England doesnt really have that in their history books. For goodness sake, Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr were prominent politicians that settled an argument with a duel. Hamilton is still heralded enough to be on our money.

After the war for independence There was vast open territory to be settled, and that wouldn't have happened without firearms. England hasn't had territory to settle (on their home turf) for a very very long time, and it will never be the size of the US.

That settlement of The West is romanticized in media, and has been for over 50 years. Kids grow up idolizing gun slingers like Wyatt Earp and the actors that played them like John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, etc. Do English kids grow up playing Cowboys and indians? What percentage of US TV shows are cop shows Compared to English TV? I'm guessing it's much higher in the US.

For better or worse, guns have played a huge role in the development of our country, and have become engrained in the culture much more deeply than other countries as a result. The US came to be at a unique time in history. No other country has had to fight for it's independence and settle/develope this amount of land since the invention of firearms.

Australia kinda the same thing. Except their indigenous people had black skin instead of red.  On the other hand it was settled by criminals. Who fought against the British. 

 You might check to see how they solved their gun violence problem about 22 years ago or so. 

Since then no mass shootings. !!!  

How well did gun control work in Mexico? Or Brazil? Or Russia?

You know, massive countries geographically instead of two islands of low population that didn't have that many guns in the first place. 

Oh and Australia has issues with biker gangs making open bolt full auto smgs.


Australia still has shootings. Hell they've still has mass murders and attempts at mass shootings. If three more of the people injured at Monash in 2002 died it would have been a mass shooting.

Stop focusing on one small part of the problem. Mass shootings don't even make up the majority of the school shootings, much less gun deaths.

I think you guys are really overplaying legacy students. 

Legacy status is pretty much available to anyone whose parents went to a college or university. I had the opportunity at 3 different schools (though I didn't take advantage of it). 

I don't think it has anything to do with race, or for that matter even money. Children of alumni simply statistically have a much better chance of succeeding at school, but also of contributing back to the school  later. 

Its a similar thing in the military. Military kids understand the culture, and are better equipped to fit in in the next generation.  

Same thing for engineers. And artists. And doctors. And accountants. And entrepreneurs.  And firemen. And police. And...

Everything is not about the haves and have-nots, nor about the terrible 1%. 

frenchyd said:

Australia kinda the same thing. Except their indigenous people had black skin instead of red.  On the other hand it was settled by criminals. Who fought against the British. 

 You might check to see how they solved their gun violence problem about 22 years ago or so. 

Since then no mass shootings. !!!  

I figured Australia was a pretty similar comparison to make as well. It's almost as large as the US, and it's a former British colony. But that seems to be where the similarities end. The US demanded, and fought for their independence. The US was quite literally born through violent war. Over 100 years later, Australia was granted independence after asking nicely. The US was the first British colony to do it, and by the time Australia was ready for independence, the British empire was totally different and put up much less resistance.

The second difference is that the westward expansion in the US was fueled by tremendous natural resources. People were drawn west by rich farmland, or vast timber forests, or deposits of precious metals. I'm not an expert on Australia, but I get the impression that the Outback isn't nearly as lush, so the westward growth there was less appealing. Less demand for precious land means fewer settlers toting guns trying to carve out and defend a homestead.

Canada is another similar country with recent independence, but like Australia, they didn't fight a war to gain their independence. 

Bob the REAL oil guy. said:

The problem with the PC movement is the ability to actually work. It's a lot like socialism and communism. It's great in theory right up to the point you involve humans. The idea that you never insult anyone anywhere at any time is noble, but stupid. Someone, somewhere will always be insulted by something from someone. It's human nature. And then to take a "zero tolerance" stance on it just makes it idiotic. 

Bob we’re rapidly approaching the point of 8 billion people in the world. It’s nearly 3 times the number of people that were alive at my birth but no more land to put them on. 

81 almost 82% of  the population lives in cities or suburbs.  In short we are crowding more and more on top of each other.  In the past a farmer might not see his neighbors for weeks or months.  Today you will interact with someone hundred times a day or more.  

Rudeness will lead to strife which will lead to conflict and well something has to give.  So it’s going to be your freedom to act as you did as a kid. 

Sophisticated civilizations know that manners and kindness are required to survive in crowded conditions.  Foolish people fail to learn and pay the price  

Don't like PC?  Fine,  become a hermit. 

Manners and kindness =/= politically correct. That’s the disconnect here. 

Our County DA is currently on an HS Assembly tour addressing threats in schools. He's accompanied by Sheriff dept, state police reps and first responders. Message:  Zero tolerance to any threats from students whether in school, social media or overheard elsewhere. Parents are notified as well. Make a threat and you will be suspended or expelled, this will be on your record the rest of your life. 

This came about on the heels of an investigation a month ago. 14 y/o mountain kid was overheard on a bus saying how he could shoot up the HS. PSP searched the kids house and found unsecured weapons in the kids room, called it an 'arsenal' including semi auto rifles and pistols, shot gun, compound and cross bow, much ammo.  I was skeptical at first, he's a mountain kid, families are different up there. Media is still calling this incident a 'HS shooting plot'. The mother was also charged w/ allowing an underage kid to possess firearms, her claim was she allowed possession to teach the kid responsibility. I was still kinda okay w/ that.

More details later, the arsenal was semi auto .22 rifles and pistols, one shot gun and hunting rifle plus the bows. Several hunting groups thought overreaction, I was still on the fence too as mountain folk are different. In HS I'd hang out w/ mountain and country folks and tech nuts. It was nothing to have a gun in your truck to go hunting after school. We had a rifle club too. There were never any threats or incidents.

Later found out the 14 y/o made a lotta comments, not only overheard once on the bus but to several friends and relatives. Kids mature at different levels, some wise and responsible beyond their age, some not. This kid is going down and rightly so. 

It's kinda routine now for at least three school threats reported and/ or cancellations per week around the five county news reporting area now. Last week was five. One County Sheriff reported that it cost up to $10K to deploy officers and to investigate one threat incident. Bomb squad, SWAT, police and first responders included if needed.

Things have changed in the last 10-20 years and since I was in school. Used to be some asshat would call in a bomb threat to get outta class. If I had a nickel for every person in school or at work who was blowing off steam about somebody w/ 'I'd berkeley that motherberkeleyer up' I'd have a month of beer money. Not anymore. Suspicious packages are investigated by the bomb squad now. SWAT gets called in for uncooperative individuals w/ police. 

This has become an age of Zero Tolerance, like it or not but rightly so. No excuses in an age of instant news, social media and internet unless they're a cave man. Throw the berkeleying book at 'em, parents included. 

This ain't kid stuff or pranks anymore. get with the berkeleying program. 

They're not going to get with the program. Look what happened after florida. 

A bunch of dumbE36 M3s on social media saying they were going to do the exact same thing just to get their name and photo trending for 15 minutes.

In reply to Bob the REAL oil guy. :

Ohh.  I’d like you to explain how manners and kindness are not related to politically correctness. 

I don’t even seen political correctness As a thing. I just see people who treat people by the golden rule and those who don’t.   That’s my view of the world. 

In reply to Bob the REAL oil guy. :

I take it from your comments you are a southerner? 

Not judging just trying to put these things in context. Having spent 9 years in the Navy I’ve met plenty of southerners and by and large they are nice people. 

I cant generalize because nearly every person I’ve met has different values and a different approach to life just like us da- n Yankees.  

However some do look at things through black and white googles.  Not that some Yankees don’t either.  

I’m beating all around the bush here,  trying to tactfully ask if you speak with respect to people of color or do you try to establish some other relationship?

frenchyd said:

 

Bob we’re rapidly approaching the point of 8 billion people in the world. It’s nearly 3 times the number of people that were alive at my birth but no more land to put them on. 

81 almost 82% of  the population lives in cities or suburbs.  In short we are crowding more and more on top of each other.  In the past a farmer might not see his neighbors for weeks or months.  Today you will interact with someone hundred times a day or more.  

Rudeness will lead to strife which will lead to conflict and well something has to give.  So it’s going to be your freedom to act as you did as a kid. 

Sophisticated civilizations know that manners and kindness are required to survive in crowded conditions.  Foolish people fail to learn and pay the price  

Don't like PC?  Fine,  become a hermit. 

Interesting concept, but real life teaches us pretty much the opposite, out of practicality.

"country folk" who see people much less often, tend to be cordial (most likely because they are likely to know them or see them again).  "city folk" who see thousands each day tend to far more aloof in public (pretty much by necessity), which could be seen as rude. They are also far more likely to run into an a-hole because of simple probability. If you want to live in a crowded city, you best build a thick skin.

A great, dramatized version of this can be seen in the movie Crocodile Dundee when he walks down the street in Manhattan saying hi to everyone, which is obviously impractical.

In reply to aircooled : you don’t know me but I’m a city boy ( although I’ve worked on farms and sold to farmers) 

I smile and wave at nearly everyone all day long and everyday.  If I catch your eye I say hello to you or good morning, maybe comment on the weather.  Smile and be friendly. 

I’m not that unique.  And the taciturn farmer is almost a cliche’  as is the brooding westerner on the horse. 

In short I don’t accept your premise. 

I find the ones who think the PC movement is about respect or politeness anymore amusing because it means they haven't been paying attention at all for the last 15 years or so.

It has gradually gotten worse and worse and ended up as exactly what it was made to supposedly fight only instead of the evul huwyte benefiting your opinions/worth are directly weighted to how many little diversity boxes you check off.



(Political stuff removed by moderator)




Basically what this rambling is saying is that the balkanization of the political parties is most certainly coming down the pipe in the US. It's going to be interesting to see what happens to both sides when the boomers get too old to be involved any more as the younger of both sides are much more hardline than they are. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Bob the REAL oil guy. :

I take it from your comments you are a southerner? 

Not judging just trying to put these things in context. Having spent 9 years in the Navy I’ve met plenty of southerners and by and large they are nice people. 

I cant generalize because nearly every person I’ve met has different values and a different approach to life just like us da- n Yankees.  

However some do look at things through black and white googles.  Not that some Yankees don’t either.  

I’m beating all around the bush here,  trying to tactfully ask if you speak with respect to people of color or do you try to establish some other relationship?

You are showing your own biases.

For the record, I am a Damned Yankee living in the South.

I used to think racism was rooted in Southern white culture.  It wasn't until I lived here for more than 20 years that I came to understand my own seeds of racism from the North.

Regardless of how many movies you watch that denigrate and stereotype the South for it's overt (and inappropriate) racial overtones, the racism I experienced in the North was far more pervasive and effective.

The most effective forms of racism are those that encourage people to think they do not have a problem- that it is someone else's problem.  Overt bigots are more common in the South, but people recognize them for what they are, and address them appropriately.  Northerners are often so rooted in their monocultural enclaves that they manage to convince themselves they do not have a problem.

That's a problem.

SVreX said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Bob the REAL oil guy. :

I take it from your comments you are a southerner? 

Not judging just trying to put these things in context. Having spent 9 years in the Navy I’ve met plenty of southerners and by and large they are nice people. 

I cant generalize because nearly every person I’ve met has different values and a different approach to life just like us da- n Yankees.  

However some do look at things through black and white googles.  Not that some Yankees don’t either.  

I’m beating all around the bush here,  trying to tactfully ask if you speak with respect to people of color or do you try to establish some other relationship?

You are showing your own biases.

For the record, I am a Damned Yankee living in the South.

I used to think racism was rooted in Southern white culture.  It wasn't until I lived here for more than 20 years that I came to understand my own seeds of racism from the North.

Regardless of how many movies you watch that denigrate and stereotype the South for it's overt (and inappropriate) racial overtones, the racism I experienced in the North was far more pervasive and effective.

The most effective forms of racism are those that encourage people to think they do not have a problem- that it is someone else's problem.  Overt bigots are more common in the South, but people recognize them for what they are, and address them appropriately.  Northerners are often so rooted in their monocultural enclaves that they manage to convince themselves they do not have a problem.

That's a problem.

That’s interesting, I remember noticing when younger how I would see many more klan (rebel confederate battle flag of Tallahassee whatever you call it) flags here in Michigan then I ever do in the south. I’ve never lived in the south but some of me experiences and meeting people make me suspect you are right. 

In reply to Grizz :

It’s not that difficult  to imagine that with the death of he boomers and th urbanization trends happening all over the us. We are moving to a state of more and more liberalization. Look at the age demographics in the last election. Adapt or die. Just like continuing to talk about being politically correct. Those who use that phrase haven’t adapted and will eventually become extinct. It’s that simple.  

Heres another way to put it.  People rage on about the coal industry and how it’s been killed by “regulation” and we need to save it.  It makes for great political theater but the industry is in its death throws for energy production.   It will keep decling as other energy sources such as ng and renewables grow.  No amount of thrashing about will save it.  The market always wins   

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/376522-coal-industry-mired-in-decline-despite-trump-pledges

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/03/us/central-michigan-shooting.html

If only a good guy with a gun was there...  ohh... wait..

In reply to Grizz :

I have edited your post to remove the references to The Left™, The Right™, Democrats and Republicans. Please refrain from using these on the forum, nothing good comes of it.

Grizz said:

I find the ones who think the PC movement is about respect or politeness anymore amusing because it means they haven't been paying attention at all for the last 15 years or so.

It has gradually gotten worse and worse and ended up as exactly what it was made to supposedly fight only instead of the evul huwyte benefiting your opinions/worth are directly weighted to how many little diversity boxes you check off.



(Political stuff removed by moderator)




Basically what this rambling is saying is that the balkanization of the political parties is most certainly coming down the pipe in the US. It's going to be interesting to see what happens to both sides when the boomers get too old to be involved any more as the younger of both sides are much more hardline than they are. 

The equal rights amendment was ratified something like 40- 50 years ago?   Since then society has slowly accepted it and moved forward.  

Right now I see the argument between the haves and the have nots.  Have a good education and understanding of social norms and those who don’t. 

Have an interest in the bettering of everyone ( rising tide floats all boats)  and those who think they can get the boat to float without the tide all by themselves.  

Understand that every lost life is a loss to mankind and it matters.  It doesn’t matter if the loss is caused by guns, drugs, or risky behavior.  

The one thing I’m absolutely sure of is that America won’t fall victim to a wacko separatist group bent on destruction  of America because they don’t get their way.  

I believe in America. I’ve seen us fight and I’ve seen us come together and we are ever so much more powerful United than separate. 

In reply to joey48442 :

If you are saying that it’s not just the south that is bigoted then I completely agree with you.  I also accept the premise that bigotry can be found anyplace in the nation along with tolerance and goodness. 

Nor do I disagree that both parties have their share of intolerance and narrow mindedness.  I’m just as offended by the church lady and her finger wagging  tsssk tssk as the drunken bum and his boorish  behavior. 

Can we all agree that the moonies are just odd. 

https://digg.com/2018/sanctuary-church-gun-commitment-photos

frenchyd said:

In reply to joey48442 :

If you are saying that it’s not just the south that is bigoted then I completely agree with you.  I also accept the premise that bigotry can be found anyplace in the nation along with tolerance and goodness. 

Nor do I disagree that both parties have their share of intolerance and narrow mindedness.  I’m just as offended by the church lady and her finger wagging  tsssk tssk as the drunken bum and his boorish  behavior. 

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. I think there may even be more of the wanna be redneck bumpkin “south will rise again” “heritage not hate” idiots up here than down south. Lots of bigots up here. 

Just to circle back to the PC culture not being part of the school problem, and tie that in to why you are seeing white males committing these mass shootings: Being a young white male has to be terrible today.

Before you poo-poo, or worse yet comment that somehow these children deserve their hell somehow because they were born white, hear (read) me out. What was the primary message of the last election? Vote for the white guy and you are a deplorable, hateful bigot? What about the diversity movement? We want more diverse opinions, and less white guy opinions. What about racial tensions? Those evil white guys again.

At least it's OK to be a young man, right? Nope, it's their fault there's a rape culture. How does a boy even tell a girl he's interested these days when anything he says can be used against him before, during, or any time after he says it without context? Every movie first date kiss the kid ever sees looks the same as date rape, purely at the whim of the girl. Try it: Watch the an 80's John Hughes film and ask yourself if the teenage boy trembling his way into that kiss could be construed as him forcing himself on the girl, and what zero tolerance punishment he could expect these days.

But it's all good, at least he has good grades, right? Only because of his white privilege. Maybe he can put his head down and work hard? Nope, damn lazy kids these days, taking jobs from the uneducated washouts of the decay of American industrialism.

The poor kid isn't allowed to be proud of his heritage. After all it doesn't matter what his family story is if he's white it's all about the terrible colonial past and surely he is descended from some bad guys in history, right?

All anyone wants and deserves is the chance to be judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin, or any other physical characteristics beyond their control due to the accident of birth. Sadly, for a young white male even asking for that much of a fair shake is tantamount to declaring themselves a hateful bigot in our polarized society. It amazes me that more don't lash out.

On a different tack, remember when in the 80's Postal workers who couldn't stand the pressure cooker of their jobs lashed out at those they felt had made their lives miserable? Those people didn't target terrorist style, they went to the place where they were made miserable and took out their frustrations on the people and places they perceived to have caused it. The kids are doing the exact same thing, going where they are miserable and taking out their frustration. Postal jobs changed to reduce the pressure; what are we doing about the schools?

In reply to oldopelguy :

I dunno.  I’ve been pretty fortunate really.  It might sound terrible but I think I really lucked out being born a white guy.  I make decent money, and have a warm house and my biggest concern right now is whether to buy a brand new focus st, fiesta st, or keep our “old” 2016 focus se.  I’m a reasonably lazy high school drop out.  I make decent money working at a good company.  I really don’t think anyone could make the argument that I’ve gotten where I am through hard work or anything like that. (I do work hard, don’t get me wrong, but no harder than any other hard working person) I really think a lot of my fortune comes from the coincidence of my being born who I am. I’ve met a lot of people of color who have worked hard, really hard their whole lives and haven’t got it as good as I do. I’m not saying I feel guilty, it’s not my fault I was born white anymore than it’s anyone else’s fault they were not, but I do recognize my good fortune

Ah, but it isn't the successful white kids we have to worry about, is it? It's the ones in trouble, looking around for help and being told that they are not just their own problem but everyone else's too.