I've got some thoughts on this topic, but I'll keep them to myself, or at least off of GRM. It is a good sign that this is on page 4 though. Keep up the conversation and please try to remain civil.
I've got some thoughts on this topic, but I'll keep them to myself, or at least off of GRM. It is a good sign that this is on page 4 though. Keep up the conversation and please try to remain civil.
The question was raised earlier about the ar versus a wood stocked semi auto, why is one considered more dangerous than the other? Here is my thought; yes essentially they are the same. Same bullets flying out at the same speed, yada yada yada. The difference is the mind of the holder. You pick up an ar and you feel like Billy badass. You envision yourself as the BAMF in the movies killing all the bad guys. I'm grown up that has been shooting since I was kid. Guns are not at all foreign to me, and they don't excite me any more, but i have felt that "biggest hootus in the room" feeling. Now what happens when a kid that has mental issues and has been bullied a lot gets that feeling for the first time? Suddenly he goes from completely powerless to a badass that can do whatever he wants, to people he feels deserve it. That E36 M3 must be intoxicating. That's why I see a difference between the two guns. If you gave that kid a 223 hunting rifle that is painted pink and covered in hello kitty stickers he wouldn't feel the same.
So let me pose the question this way, two guns that shoot the same bullets at the same speed. Both are capable of the same thing. One looks scary and the other doesnt. Why are you so afraid that the scary one might go away, if the other one is equal in everything but appearance?
The civilian AR-15 is not all that unique when it comes to rate of fire. Here are some other semi-automatic rifles out there that can fire just as quickly, just with a less militaristic appearance.
Ruger Mini-14
Benelli R1 (Has a 10 round magazine standard, but it's not very obvious)
Most of the proposed "assault weapons bans" tend to single out either a model or styling features, but it's very easy to come up with an equally lethal gun that circumvents the ban.
pheller said:Right, because the rest of the world also has access to those games.
Also, I can't see how even a wacked out mass-shooter views any similarity between shooting "bad guys" and shooting kids, or their peers.
If that was the case I'd think we see more young people battling it out with police officers.
Video games glorify violence, but our politics glorify hate.
I'd bet that all of these guys consider themselves to be the "good guys" in each scenario, or their victims to be the "bad guys". I doubt that very many of these shooters feel their actions are evil or unjustified. If somebody picks on you, they're a bad guy in your mind. If somebody has a better life than you, they're just part of the problem that is keeping you down.
We're now about 3 generations into a culture that has grown up watching the "good guys" brandish firearms. Not knives, or crossbows, or bombs, or trucks, or sharks with lasers on their heads. Those are tools for the bad guys. The good guys almost always use guns. This leads to a fetishization of firearms. So if I want to take down some "bad guys" like a real "good guy" would, I'm going to use a gun. Knives require you to be really close to your victim, and are less lethal. Crossbows take time to reload. Bombs don't let you see it all go down first hand. No, it has to be a gun. Guns are sexy.
I'm not laying this at the feet of society. These are obviously unbalanced individuals with impulse control and a desire to harm others. But what's become "normal" over the last 40 years or so has changed wildly
gearheadmb said:If you gave that kid a 223 hunting rifle that is painted pink and covered in hello kitty stickers...
berkeleying genius! From this day forth there should only be one color scheme allowed for rifles holding more than five rounds.
MadScientistMatt said:The civilian AR-15 is not all that unique when it comes to rate of fire. Here are some other semi-automatic rifles out there that can fire just as quickly, just with a less militaristic appearance.
Ruger Mini-14
Benelli R1 (Has a 10 round magazine standard, but it's not very obvious)
Most of the proposed "assault weapons bans" tend to single out either a model or styling features, but it's very easy to come up with an equally lethal gun that circumvents the ban.
There are only two reasons to buy the AR15 over the Ruger or the Benelli. The first being it is a much cheaper weapon. You can get a "generic" AR for 300 to 400 dollars. The second is that the AR15 is an intimidating weapon. It looks similar to the weapons the US Military uses and more than likely is the kind of weapon a wannabe solder would want when he thinks back to the movies "Red Dawn" and "Rambo". It's mean and scary, the Ruger and Benelli are MUCH better weapons, but look like something your grandfather would use.
Amusing (to me) and only tertiarily related...
I graduated from HS in Frankfurt, Germany where my Dad was stationed in the Army, from a Department of Defense-run school. Not too long after I graduated as the US Army drew-down their forces in the country (in no small part due to the collapse of the USSR) and the base my HS was on was closed down and the land and buildings turned back over to the German government. Being, well, German (as opposed to Mondoshawan) they evaluated each of the buildings and put them to the use that they decided they were best suited. My old HS? They repurposed it as a prison.
mad_machine said:MadScientistMatt said:The civilian AR-15 is not all that unique when it comes to rate of fire. Here are some other semi-automatic rifles out there that can fire just as quickly, just with a less militaristic appearance.
Ruger Mini-14
Benelli R1 (Has a 10 round magazine standard, but it's not very obvious)
Most of the proposed "assault weapons bans" tend to single out either a model or styling features, but it's very easy to come up with an equally lethal gun that circumvents the ban.
There are only two reasons to buy the AR15 over the Ruger or the Benelli. The first being it is a much cheaper weapon. You can get a "generic" AR for 300 to 400 dollars. The second is that the AR15 is an intimidating weapon. It looks similar to the weapons the US Military uses and more than likely is the kind of weapon a wannabe solder would want when he thinks back to the movies "Red Dawn" and "Rambo". It's mean and scary, the Ruger and Benelli are MUCH better weapons, but look like something your grandfather would use.
Well the Benelli is better, but the Mini-14 just makes you a wanna be A-team member (even though B.A. wouldn't touch one).
It's clear we have a problem. All we have accomplished is arguing about it....
...for DECADES.
More guns, less guns, mental illness treatment, security systems, background checks, age limits, numbing to violence... the list is endless. And we have done ... NOTHING.
The only thing we have accomplished is corporate self-emasculation.
I suggest that the answer is, ALL OF IT.
We need ACTION, not argument. We need reasonable background checks, mental illness treatment, societal checks and balances, healthier attitudes about violence, more guns, more restrictions, more training, etc, etc, etc.
We need to get our collective heads out of our asses and start caring more about our kids than our agendas, pride, and personal opinions. We need to stop arguing about the RIGHT way to solve the problem (as if it were a monolithic simple problem), and throw REAL energy at fixes. Good or bad fixes doesn't even matter. If we over-regulate, so be it. Will can dial it back later when we realize the error of our ways.
Threads like this piss me off. We are so intelligent we overthink everything and can't figure out how to get ourselves out of a paper bag. If it's a train wreck, so be it. I'll be the engineer.
We have played this game too long. We the people are being suckered into complacency by political agendas and money.
In reply to SVreX :
I don't think anyone in this thread would disagree with you.
The problem is that the general consensus is that everything would take too long, isn't the problem, invades privacy, cost tax dollars, or is scary.
People on one side of the argument will tell you that guns aren't the problem and shouldn't be touched, and folks on the other side will tell you that better security for schools (or events) turns them into prisons.
Politicians get blasted for "knee jerk" bills that attempt to change something, anything, those bills end up flailing about before dying, and no progress happens.
You're right, now is the time to finally do something. The last time was the time to finally do something. In fact, anytime there is any mass shooting we should be trying new things. Keep the perps on their toes. As a "progressive", I firmly believe that politicians should always be trying new things to build a better tomorrow. More taxes, less taxes, less laws, more laws, more regs, less regs, doesn't matter, JUST DO SOMETHING. We won't know until actually try, and perhaps that's lost on today's parents, who seem to inept at actually TRYING to make the world better for their kids.
mad_machine said:MadScientistMatt said:The civilian AR-15 is not all that unique when it comes to rate of fire. Here are some other semi-automatic rifles out there that can fire just as quickly, just with a less militaristic appearance.
Ruger Mini-14
Benelli R1 (Has a 10 round magazine standard, but it's not very obvious)
Most of the proposed "assault weapons bans" tend to single out either a model or styling features, but it's very easy to come up with an equally lethal gun that circumvents the ban.
There are only two reasons to buy the AR15 over the Ruger or the Benelli. The first being it is a much cheaper weapon. You can get a "generic" AR for 300 to 400 dollars. The second is that the AR15 is an intimidating weapon. It looks similar to the weapons the US Military uses and more than likely is the kind of weapon a wannabe solder would want when he thinks back to the movies "Red Dawn" and "Rambo". It's mean and scary, the Ruger and Benelli are MUCH better weapons, but look like something your grandfather would use.
Actually, I disagree. A decent AR is a much better weapon. Better accuracy, better ergonomics. I wanted a mini-14 for years.... until I shot one. Accuracy is meh, ergonomics are wrong, sites suck and the thing is twice as expensive as the AR I bought.
Also, if Red Dawn and Rambo are the movies, they want an AK as that is the weapon of choice used in both of those (and an M-60 by stallone himself). But we won't let facts get in the way of a good rant.
"We won't know until actually try, and perhaps that's lost on today's parents, who seem to inept at actually TRYING to make the world better for their kids. " This and the behavioral drug 'two-step' process leaves me speechless. I just recently found out that my dear mother(god rest her soul), had my middle sister on anti-anxiety meds starting in early high school.....to this day if a conversation between us gets the least bit heated the tears start flowing. Life was never meant to be easy ........deal with it.
In reply to pheller :
I cried like a pubescent girl after Sandy Hook. Nothing got done. I would like nothing more than to at least accomplish SOMETHING this go around!
In reply to Grizz : protective prisons!!! When was the last time someone broke into a prison to shoot people?
Schools already are prisons. Students can’t leave whenever they want. They are required to be there. Etc
In reply to Bob the REAL oil guy. :
Alright, you’ve convinced me. It’s unfair/too hard/ not right to pick on any rifle so let’s just agree to eliminate all semi automatics?
I mean if you need a semi automatic to go hunting your fellow hunters will tell you to take target practice. Same with target practice etc.
I mean machine guns are illegal aren’t they?
Whenever someone says to me if we only had more regulations, then A or B would not happen and that politicians need to step in. Regulations are made in a Smokey room and manipulated by interest groups, insurance companies and lawyers, I don’t believe they are in any shape or form to help the situation.
The infamous, they have psychological dieses. I grew in a time (Millennial) where psychiatrist would throw ritalin around like it was candy, you add that to all of the illegal drugs, tie pods, and whatever else high schools are taking nowadays, you have to wonder if everybody needs to be in an asylum. A Coach of mine one day was talking to me about the dangers of drugs, and said when he grew up (Early Baby boomer) They didn’t have to worry about drugs, because nobody could afford them or even knew what they were.
Bottom line is you cannot change the politicians and mental illness has a low success rate, and typically, people just throw drugs at them. It’s an endless cycle.
My solution is Community Schools the strategy for organizing school and community resources around student success. It also involves the parents and students to attend events and embrace schools as a community center. It helps students and parents buy-in.
My other solution, when I was teacher I worked with students that could be successful just not in a classroom setting. Many programs are successful in doing hands on experience, that actually lead to jobs, and it might be an ideal solution with the baby boomers retiring that a High School actually equip students will a sellable trade.
wjones said:gearheadmb said:If you gave that kid a 223 hunting rifle that is painted pink and covered in hello kitty stickers...
berkeleying genius! From this day forth there should only be one color scheme allowed for rifles holding more than five rounds.
There already are pink AR's out there. For the gun slinging ladies.
I've heard a legitimate reason as to why there could be certain situations where the ability to rapidly fire multiple shots at an animal may prevent an injured animal from dragging itself around the forest before dying in a ditch where it goes to waste.
With that said, I'd think with some practice the ability to reload a bolt action rifle would prevent such incidents.
As fun as auto-loaders are, I never understood the need for more than two shots in a shotgun. You really don't need to litter the local pond with lead as you pop off 8 rounds at geese, and just how many rabbits do shoot at in a single run?
Some of this has to do with the preference to just waste animals, like coyotes and crows. When the only goal is to make sure the animal is really dead really quick, of course a semi-auto has advantages.
frenchyd said:I mean machine guns are illegal aren’t they?
No. Just very difficult and expensive to get... if you want to do it legally.
You know on gun forums there going ape-E36 M3 saying that this is all a conspiracy; the kids are being used as pawns and embellishing their distress; they are being paid by the anti-gunners.
The only solution for them is to allow guns in schools.
If only we, as a society, were willing to devote the funding to schools that we do to corrections, we could. Not that children deserve to be in prision-like environments, but the discrepancy does highlight the priority given by today's society.
Increases in Spending on Corrections Far Outpace Education
The report, Trends in State and Local Expenditures on Corrections and Education, notes that even when population changes are factored in, 23 states increased per capita spending on corrections at more than double the rate of increases in per-pupil P-12 spending. Seven states—Idaho, Michigan, Montana, North Dakota, South Carolina, South Dakota, and West Virginia—increased their corrections budgets more than five times as fast as they did their allocations for P-12 public education. The report also paints a particularly stark picture of higher education spending across the country at a time when postsecondary education matters more than ever. Since 1990, state and local spending on higher education has been largely flat while spending on corrections has increased 89 percent.
“Budgets reflect our values, and the trends revealed in this analysis are a reflection of our nation’s priorities that should be revisited,” said U.S. Secretary of Education John B. King Jr. “For far too long, systems in this country have continued to perpetuate inequity. We must choose to make more investments in our children’s future. We need to invest more in prevention than in punishment, to invest more in schools, not prisons.”
Change costs money. We have been treating the symptoms of society's shortcomings and not the cause for many generations. I think we need to look at how society has changed, and why so many people feel that violence is an answer to their troubles. This is not a situation with one answer, and limiting legal access to something doesen't make it go away - prohibition is a perfect example of this. It really only increases the amount of resources that have to be spent enforcing the restrictions. Not saying no restrictions at all are the answer, but rather that a successful strategy for reducing the violence will involve many moving pieces, including bringing hope and value to people's lives, providing meaningful purpose to those in despair, and a belief that true equality exists for everyone. This is no easy task, and it's really only the beginning of the changes that would be needed for future generations.
trigun7469 said:Whenever someone says to me if we only had more regulations, then A or B would not happen and that politicians need to step in. Regulations are made in a Smokey room and manipulated by interest groups, insurance companies and lawyers, I don’t believe they are in any shape or form to help the situation.
Research the Triangle Shirtwaist fire. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/triangle-shirtwaist-fire-in-new-york-city Regulations would have prevented that fire and the loss of life. And since then, regulations HAVE prevented it. Regulations keep companies from operating sweatshops in this country and have made the air breathable again in urban areas. Regulations keep human waste from accumulating in the streets. I can go on for a LONG time about how regulations have kept people from harm over the decades since the time of the robber barons. But to you, it's just smoky backroom crap designed to take away your freedom. 
wjones said:You know on gun forums there going ape-E36 M3 saying that this is all a conspiracy; the kids are being used as pawns and embellishing their distress; they are being paid by the anti-gunners.
The only solution for them is to allow guns in schools.
Oh, yeah. Brenda the social studies teacher is who I want brandishing a gun in the middle of a hundred panicked kids. We can't even fund school supplies and the NRA wants teachers to buy, train, and carry weapons?
In reply to Chris_V :
Let's keep this discussion civil. Your tone is aggressive and I'm certain that you can find a way to express your opinion without being antagonistic. Please edit your post to be less inflammatory.
EastCoastMojo said:In reply to Chris_V :
Let's keep this discussion civil. Your tone is aggressive and I'm certain that you can find a way to express your opinion without being antagonistic. Please edit your post to be less inflammatory.
I did tone it down from what I WANTED to say.
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