Sewer... who's responsible?

I know the basics.  Property owner is responsible for the stuff on their property leading up to the municipal sewer main.

But what if the municipality is remarkably stupid and puts the sewer main in the middle of nowhere?

SWMBO just bought a house in November.  She's been having water backing up in her basement.  I have a 25' snake and gave that a shot but couldn't reach it.  Four plumbers, two township sewer authority guys, and 4 hours later, they discovered this in the manhole.  Her line has broken and sunk about 3".

Ok, so dig it up and fix, right?  Not so much.  Take a look at the screencap below.  Purple is her house, Red is the manhole where she connects to the main, and blue is where we assume her line goes based on listening to the snake with a microphone.

The other fun part is that we didn't see any other lines attaching to that manhole, which means that there may be two or three other houses that branch into her line.  Sewer authority said that there is a main that comes up from the bottom and goes out the side street (green line) but they have nothing on the map that even shows that the manhole/main at the red arrow even exists.

How can they do that?  It will require her to get three separate easements, permission from all the neighbors, tear up three people's lawns, and cost her about $20k.  She's paying through the nose tomorrow to have a plumber come out with a camera and try to map the whole thing to see if anyone else is on her line, but WTF?

How does she proceed with this?  The township is telling her that it's all her responsibility, but how can she be responsible for sewer line that isn't on her property?

Oh, and to give you a better perspective... as you travel from the bottom of the picture to the top, it is downhill which is why she can't tie into the green line.

Her house is the one in the middle of this picture.

If they say they're green why not just connect to it and be done? Edit you just beat me. 

May be worth speaking to a lawyer?

I think a couple hundred bucks with an attorney who has a record of success dealing with municipalities would be money well spent for her next move. 

In reply to Curtis73 :

After seeing both pics, where do the other homes downhill from here tie into the sewer? Unless everything is flowing downhill to the treatment plant they must have a lift station somewhere. 

Pete Gossett said:

In reply to Curtis73 :

After seeing both pics, where do the other homes downhill from here tie into the sewer? Unless everything is flowing downhill to the treatment plant they must have a lift station somewhere. 

It's unclear.  None of it is on the sewer authority map, and hers was apparently the only one tied in at the manhole, which means if the other houses around there use that line, they are tied into her "party poop" line.

Mr_Asa said:

May be worth speaking to a lawyer?

Agreed.  Legal-type friends have colloquially indicated that the only recourse would be to prove that the previous owners knew about it and didn't disclose it, then sue them.  Probability of success = slim, not to mention, she can't afford the repairs and she can't shower or flush her toilet for two years if we wait for the legal system.

Pete Gossett said:

In reply to Curtis73 :

After seeing both pics, where do the other homes downhill from here tie into the sewer? Unless everything is flowing downhill to the treatment plant they must have a lift station somewhere. 

Lots of hills around here, so I would assume the township has multiple lift stations.  This whole area is full of hills 50-100' elevation and 1/2 mile across.  At the bottom of the hill (top of the picture) there is a little stream but I don't know if that valley has enough drop to be effective for a sewer line.

She could put a sewage pump in her home and pump uphill to the green line. Not cheap, but might be less than fixing the existing system.

In reply to Curtis73 :

Reading through this again, if any other homes tie into the common line between her house & the manhole, then they should also be having drainage problems, correct? That needs to be determined next - if other homes tie into that line it's no longer 100% her responsibility. 
 

The township should want these homes on their map & tied into their system. So they should be able to tell her where she should be tied into it. Either their green line also continues downhill past the front of her house, or they would want a lift station to tie her into the side street. If there's a sewer line under Ridgeway that they want her tied into then I don't see how they'd be surprised by the current location of her line. 

I'm not an authority on this by any means, but my thought is that if other houses are tying into it, once it leaves her property, it stops being "hers" and becomes municipal. 

I'm betting that the builder pulled some crap when the houses were getting built.

Pete Gossett said:

In reply to Curtis73 :

Reading through this again, if any other homes tie into the common line between her house & the manhole, then they should also be having drainage problems, correct? That needs to be determined next - if other homes tie into that line it's no longer 100% her responsibility. 
 

Agreed.  If hers is backing up UPHILL, then they should have her poop in their basement.

Can you do a septic system?  Screw em. 

I’ve dealt a lot with utility and sewer authorities. They ALWAYS make someone else pay.  

What SHOULD have happened is the developer should have built according to their specs, then transferred ownership to the authority. But if it’s not on their map, it may not have happened. 

You may need a civil engineer. 

The cheapest and quickest solution in the short term is probably to install a holding tank and have it pumped every other month. That will get expensive in the long term.  (But should only be about $100 per event).

She may be able to win by reporting the owner of the property where the break is to the Health Department. (That owner may be the Sewer Authority).  This would go best with a lawyer. 

The camera is a good idea, but don’t let her go further than that. She doesn’t want to be trying to do repairs on somebody else’s property. 

Shes gonna need a temporary solution, and a long term fight. But she shouldn’t have to pay for (most of) the damages. 

Oh... and stop paying her sewer bill. (With an attorney’s blessing). 

He’ll probably suggest she continue to pay it into an escrow account...

Pre-existing condition should have been caught prior to the purchase. It appears it was not back filled properly. (Been There Lived That)

Due to past experiences I will not buy any property without running a camera through the the entire system. You would not believe the stories I can tell.

In Portland there are many homes on a "shared" branch off the main system. They were sued and have been slowly separating the sewer connections.

Sadly it will not likely be easy to find someone to pay for the repairs without a lawsuit. Unless a lawyer sees a remedy, she will have to bite the bullet.

At any rate she needs to flush now...   

Moving forward I'd want to know how deep the green line is to see if it is viable to connect to and abandon the goofy-ness.

What is the patch in the street in front of the house? Looks like they cut the sidewalk as well.... There were obviously other problems.

Kinda makes me glad I've got a septic system on my 1.6 acres.  At least I know my E36 M3 is my responsibility, nobody else's E36 M3 is fraternizing with mine, and my E36 M3 stays in the tank until which time I pay to have it pumped out.  If something breaks, I know where it all is.

Good luck with this E36 M3.

There is a certain distance away that the sewer becomes the cities problem, at least around here.  I have recurring tree root issues, and the city clears them as long as they are outside the footprint of my house.  Repairs to the sewer line under my lawn are mine, until they come to the easement by the street, at which point they become the cities problem.

I'd do a little research at city hall to find policy.

Edit: Looking at the picture again, I think a small jack hammer and a bit of mortar or oakum or something would solve that issue, as long as there is enough room in the manhole to work.

My $.02 she needs to buy time because the best solution is going to take time to make itself apparent. So like others are saying - focus on what could be done "soon" like a portable toilet (they actually have nice ones) or use an RV in the driveway. I know this sounds bad but sewer lines and government and neighbors = 4 or 5 digit money if you try to rush into a solution.

bentwrench said:

Pre-existing condition should have been caught prior to the purchase. It appears it was not back filled properly. (Been There Lived That)

Due to past experiences I will not buy any property without running a camera through the the entire system. You would not believe the stories I can tell.

In Portland there are many homes on a "shared" branch off the main system. They were sued and have been slowly separating the sewer connections.

Sadly it will not likely be easy to find someone to pay for the repairs without a lawsuit. Unless a lawyer sees a remedy, she will have to bite the bullet.

At any rate she needs to flush now...   

Moving forward I'd want to know how deep the green line is to see if it is viable to connect to and abandon the goofy-ness.

What is the patch in the street in front of the house? Looks like they cut the sidewalk as well.... There were obviously other problems.

 

 

Gas and water both run on the street in front of the house.

Of course, it should have been checked, but no inspector will go that far. They'll flush toilets and run the water long enough to do a pressure test, but not enough to fill 200' of partially clogged sewer line.  The only other option would be to have every single house you look at get permission to have a plumber send a camera down the line... many of which would make you sign an "informational purposes only" thing, and half of whom wouldn't go 200'.  If she had to pay $800 for every house she considered to run a camera down the pipe, she would have spent thousands.That's kinda like removing and inspecting the catalytic converter of every car you consider buying.  Disproportionate level of effort and expense for the possibility that it's the one random car you buy that will need a $500 converter job.  Instead, we buy the car and one in 20 times that we roll the dice we get a lemon.

Even if she called the township, they had no idea that it even existed.  The only way they found the manhole was with a metal detector that reached through a lady's 3' deep flowerbed, and that was three doors down on another street after a plumber put 2 hours into looking for it.

It's a gamble, and one that you have to weigh every time.  But I would have made the same choice:  House built in 1964, cast iron inside, municipal sewer, vs $800 for a camera check that might not show anything and you won't be able to sue the plumber any more than you can sue anyone else.

IIRC, the green line is about 5-6' down (trying to remember all the stuff the plumber said), which means from her basement up to the green line is likely 12-15'.  That first house on the side street is about 10' higher than hers, and his drains downhill as well.

In reply to Curtis73 :

It's not her line.  Unless she has an easement attached to someone's deed, that pipe is on somebody else's property.

Repairing it is someone else's responsibility. The only thing she needs to be concerend with right now is how to E36 M3 without it backing up on her floor.

Holding tank.  Then a long fight.

...and no, sewer line inspection is definitely not part of a home inspector’s job. 

You are missing some big pieces to this puzzle. 

1- The green line... What’s the depth?  Are you sure she can’t tap into it?  You are assuming the sewer lines more or les follow the co tours of the surface at a consistent depth. They don’t. You can have a grade contour that is running uphill, while the sewer runs downhill. 

2- Even if the invert if the green line is too shallow for her to tie into, it would still be cheaper for her to install a sewage ejector pump and tie directly into it. 

3- The red manhole... That line definitely does not end there. It either ties into a main on the lower street, or turns the corner and rides the back of the property lines on the lower street. Manholes are not installed in straight run pipes. Manholes are where pipes turn. So, it’s likely it turns at the rear of those properties. If it does, then there are MUCH more than 3 properties on the line, and the Sewer Authority needs to make an accounting of them. 

4- What did the manhole say on it?  Did it say “Sewer”?  There is a possibility that’s not a sewer manhole. It could be a storm drainage manhole. In older communities sometimes they are cross-connected. 

Bottom line is still what I said earlier- It’s not her line. It’s not her property. Fixing it is not her responsibility. She should not put much effort or money into this. 

Caution- you can't arbitrarily change your sewage disposal in PA without DEP approval... which likely won't be issued if you are in a public sewer area.  As far as the sewer line out back, did the deed or the title report reference anything?  You may want to go to the recorder  of deeds and look at the recorded plan to see if anything is on it about an easement.  Also, are there any old, original owner neighbors? They can sometimes be a trove of knowledge.  What about the municipality for the original building permit package?

Back in the 60s things were a little loosey goose with what builders could pull, so you may be sol. If that's the case, get yourself a Land Use attorney and a civil engineer.