Shop owners/managers... I need you in a huddle

I did not read this whole thread but being a business owner one thing I can say is even if you can do it cheaper at some point you are going to have to run the business.  AND there is liability.  Building motors versus a crate engine.  I would go crate motor every time if I was the company providing the motor to a client.  It is simple, virtually guaranteed to work and in the end it will probably be cheaper and the BEST part is if it grenades 2 months later they take it up with ford or GM.  A huge part of running a business is mitigating risk.  Same would go with transmissions.  Passing the liability of big ticket components back to the manufacturer would be one of my biggest concerns if I was trying to make money building cars.  It also makes calculating the cost's much easier when selling the car. 

I don't see a problem with doing a couple of flips per year as a side hustle/ hobby. But you can't depend on that income, and you probably shouldn't break down your profits into an hourly wage.

I think the trailers idea is the best one I've read so far imho.

dean1484 said:

I did not read this whole thread but being a business owner one thing I can say is even if you can do it cheaper at some point you are going to have to run the business.  AND there is liability.  Building motors versus a crate engine.  I would go crate motor every time if I was the company providing the motor to a client.  It is simple, virtually guaranteed to work and in the end it will probably be cheaper and the BEST part is if it grenades 2 months later they take it up with ford or GM.  A huge part of running a business is mitigating risk.  Same would go with transmissions.  Passing the liability of big ticket components back to the manufacturer would be one of my biggest concerns if I was trying to make money building cars.  It also makes calculating the cost's much easier when selling the car. 

Good point, but part of this is to not be a business per se.  Operated as a business from the accounting side, possibly operated under an LLC, but I don't want to take in a customer car and have to warranty work, conform to their budgets, schedules, etc.  I've done that before.  Yuck.  I want to buy a car, fix it/mod it, and sell it as a used vehicle.  Under PA law, its really about as close as you can get to as-is when you make a private party used car sale.  I'm not out to screw the buyer, but there would be very limited liability for me.

dxman92 said:

I think the trailers idea is the best one I've read so far imho.

Funny you all mention this.  I have a super soft spot for Spartan travel trailers, and some of you may recall my desire to build a tractor trailer into an RV.  This does suit my interests, but I think I would be severely limiting my buyers.  A lot more people want a 70 Chevelle than they do a 65 Airstream.

But you're right, I do love the idea.

may or may not be pertinant to what you are asking/talking about curtis;

I have a friend who loves his cars, but finds zero time/motivation to work on them. He has had 4-5 projects that ended up being finished or majority done in someone elses shop. The guy he currently has working on stuff is basically building a 65 corvette with a C4 suspended chassis and a big block (and all the niggling detils it brings along, like electric power steering, no clearance from exhaust to suspension, cooling issues, etc).  

Sounds like you could almost do what you want by showing up at carshows with a finished car and cards saying "Projects built / Projects Finished".  It would take awhile to build client base, but where I used to live (western MD) there seemed to be a mess of people making a good amount of side money or retiring into doing that. Many lived out in the sticks and even had a shingle hung on their out building "XXX's Garage"   But I do know of at least one who makes good money by specializing in old c1/c2 corvettes (he seems connected to about half of them in that area).

IDK, just kinda blathering out my experience.  Biggest thing I know is if you finish when you say you will for about the amount of money you said it would take, you are instantly one of the best in that market. Not many proper businesses want to touch anything that isnt like the OEM intended. 

We've probably finished off as many projects as we have done from start to finish.

It doesn't take much for an average joe to figure out he's in over his head.

That being said, it costs a lot for us to pick up the pieces left behind by other shops, quite often my job is re-doing someone elses shoddy work.

Might be a good market to get into.

Curtis said:

Thanks Ian.  I like the "do one thing" as a business model and I would certainly farm out the things I can't do (like body work... I suck at it) but I see no reason to farm out things that I can do myself.  For instance I could buy crate engines, but I see no reason when I can build engines myself for far less money.  The machine work I would farm out because it makes no sense for me to get the education and a half a million dollars of machinery to do it myself.

I just want to take what I already do and step it up a notch so that it pays for itself

(unless it can't which is why I'm here bouncing the idea off of you guys)

Sadly for you, what you hate/suck at is what most people seem to need. My "friend" stumbled into the tinwork side of this game by accident after having done a few restorations of his own. Suddenly, people were contacting him to ask if he would do the tin-work on their cars?  My" friend" fully realizes the futility of doing this as a legitimate business, however at around $40/hour plus the freedom to cherry pick projects, my "friend" is having a good time with his side-job to the tune of 20 hours/week.

My boss owns 2 quick lubes as a day job and does bodywork projects on the side, hes good and is enough in demand too pick and choose what he wants to do. He did body and fab work full time for a few years and said the only way too keep it enjoyable is too work on cars with someone elses money. Building and selling on your own dime is high risk. 

I have only cashed in on this game twice, but I have often tried to figure out how to expand on it. I call it the "Hookers and Blow" consultation business. 

Twice, I have had prospective project builders with zero experience come over and pay me for an hour of my time to consult about their dreams and automotive ambitions. Both times my speech started with how Hookers and Blow would be a more responsible use of their income.  We toured the shop, pointed out the cost of some core work that would be needed to realize their idea and had a beer going over the project details and how long it would take and cost to finish.  Best $50 they spent and I got paid to drink a beer.

This might seque in from the mental health training side.

NOHOME said:

I have only cashed in on this game twice, but I have often tried to figure out how to expand on it. I call it the "Hookers and Blow" consultation business. 

 

Twice, I have had prospective project builders with zero experience come over and pay me for an hour of my time to consult about their dreams and automotive ambitions. Both times my speech started with how Hookers and Blow would be a more responsible use of their income.  We toured the shop, pointed out the cost of some core work that would be needed to realize their idea and had a beer going over the project details and how long it would take and cost to finish.  Best $50 they spent and I got paid to drink a beer.

This might seque in from the mental health training side.

 

 

Maybe offer a free shrink session where I convince them they're crazy for working on their project then offer to take it off their hands for free?

Just kidding.

Fortunately I have been steeped in much of the business for a long time; 5 years in customs, 7 years in general and transmission repair shop - both getting greasy and managing/co-owning.  That is NOT to say that I'm a good business owner, its just to say that I at least know how the business works... enough to know that I don't want to even think about trying to start a custom shop business.

Put it this way; Carlisle is full of amazing swap meets and there are almost no custom shops around.  There was one really good welding/fab shop in town but it closed a few years ago.  I think that my area is totally ripe for a good custom shop, but I won't be the one to do it.  That's not my game.  I'm just looking to get my hobby to pay for itself with some creativity.  Putting my skills and experience to use.

 Lets talk about the mental health side for a minute and what it would take to finish your schooling.  Your current job is 80 hours a week and preventing you from doing anything else. You can't progress in any direction.  What about a temporary 40 hour a week gig to get you through school? It might suck, but pays the bills and lets you finish school. 

What mental heath work can you do now? Could you get a job/internship that would pay for school or at least be a foot in the door when you are done?

I have heard of consoling being done over e-mail / web chat. Sounds like a good idea to start/expand things. You could work from home with a very flexible schedule. Good mental health care is out of reach of most people ( you know this) $100-$200 for a 45 minute session just doesn't work for me.  

Once you've got this part wrapped up, you'll have plenty of time to build cars. Maybe have interested patients help here and there with small/easy task as some sort of therapy? The trick is to build what sells, and that may not match your personal taste.

Agreed, gearhead.  Right now I'm just too busy.  I have tried for two years to make this job not be a time suck; I have redone the shop so its easy to access things and keep clean.  I have re-organized all of our props and labeled the shelves, so the props rental is pretty easy.  I give the renters a ladder and tell them its on shelf 7B and go back to my work.  But that took me from 100 hours a week to 80 hours.  I have worked with the exec director to try and streamline responsibilities, but her response is "no, that's your job so do it." basically.  They are basically requiring unpaid overtime and not being nice, thankful, or anything about it.  In fact, they're pretty critical of it.  They love me personally but have zero clue what I do here.  So their ignorance shows as "we love you and what you do, so do more."

The answer is to get out of this job.  I'm about to start actively searching.  There was a job at the local PSU campus as more or less a theater grunt; hang lights, set out chairs for events, etc.  It would have been a huge step down in enjoyment, a terrible facility, and also a $6000 pay cut, but it would have gotten me 50% off my tuition.  That campus also doesn't offer a masters in counseling, so I just didn't see that being a viable choice, although I should have researched it more.

I'm making in the neighborhood of $35k right now plus good benefits and I can continue on that salary or a tiny bit less if tuition isn't a killer.

On the topic of e-counseling, it is a thing.  Its not being very well accepted yet but it is starting.  I had a counseling session once while my therapist was in Germany.  Things like internet speeds and time lags can make them less productive, but it is an option.  Put it this way:  Its hard to maintain the integrity of the session if its not one on one but it is a viable alternative for some patients.

Vintage campers, trailers, custom cars & motorcycles, etc. are all toys and suffer a volatile economic status. Feast or famine, and long hours of physically demanding and debilitating shop work, no/minimal benefits....

Mental health can suck your soul dry. And if TSHTF will fail economically as fast as toys. Unless you can get a civil sector position (but then there is still the soul suck because you have to work withing civil parameters) If you can find enough win in that to keep you content, it has great benefits (medical & retirement) too. What about the educational mental heath area counseling students? Or legal aspects of mental health?

Upper echelons of Water Management and Waste Management are another good area. Not necessarily attractive or rewarding but easy "work" not going to wreck your body like shop work. And also have great benefits.

Curtis said:

Put it this way; Carlisle is full of amazing swap meets and there are almost no custom shops around.  There was one really good welding/fab shop in town but it closed a few years ago.  I think that my area is totally ripe for a good custom shop, but I won't be the one to do it.  That's not my game.  I'm just looking to get my hobby to pay for itself with some creativity.  Putting my skills and experience to use.

If that is the case, you need to do some investigating as to why there are no custom shops around Carlisle.   I agree it seems off that such a car-centric local like Carlisle would be lacking in such shops, but at the same time, there has to be a reason.

bentwrench said:

Vintage campers, trailers, custom cars & motorcycles, etc. are all toys and suffer a volatile economic status. Feast or famine, and long hours of physically demanding and debilitating shop work, no/minimal benefits....

Mental health can suck your soul dry. And if TSHTF will fail economically as fast as toys. Unless you can get a civil sector position (but then there is still the soul suck because you have to work withing civil parameters) If you can find enough win in that to keep you content, it has great benefits (medical & retirement) too. What about the educational mental heath area counseling students? Or legal aspects of mental health?

Wise words.

I have given much thought to the sucking your soul dry.  As an empath-type person it has taken me a very long time to come around to it.  Its one of those callings that I know I'm being asked to do from within, but it has taken me 44 years to reach a place of self-awareness to know that its time to jump.  That is to say, before now I would have been sucked dry by working in mental health (and it still may) but I'm at least at the point of awareness where I can no longer ignore the calling.

Just wanted to point out that set building is not a high-level carpentry exercise. If you can't see the difference at 20', it's good enough, and it only needs to look that good for a weekend.

I mention it partially to counter some of the impressions it seems earlier posters had, but also as a commentary to Curtis on his efforts. Based on your years of posting here, you seem like the type who wants to make sure it's done "right", even if it means working 80+ hours a week. Wherever you end up going with your future career and life, figuring out a better balance in your near term will likely help you make a better plan instead of just continuing to burn out. You already mentioned that the extra effort isn't really being appreciated by those managing the org above you.

I have some experienced friends in the DC/Balt area who could be a reference/perspective resource for your set design/construction role if you'd like me to reach out to them. Hit me up with an email if so.

I also think the RV/trailer idea is intriguing, and do think you'd have the skills an eye to do it well (that's kind of the problem with your set efforts). Might be worth some research to see what price points are turning over quickly so you can see if there's a self-stable model for your builds at that price point. If it's cheap enough, it wouldn't hurt to try it!

Many thanks, BlueJ.  When I get to the job searching part, I'll PM you for sure.

Don't have to wait till then. Doesn't hurt to start a relationship earlier. Was thinking they might help as a reference for your current work and managing the process.

The RV idea has some merit, although one issue may be space. Even small RVs take up a fair amount of space and you'll need a fair amount of room to have a few projects going at the same time.