Despite being a bit confusing, the prequels still tell a more coherent story than the sequels
Despite being a bit confusing, the prequels still tell a more coherent story than the sequels
NickD said:mtn said:Duke said:VolvoHeretic said:Lol, so that's what those movies where about. I've watched those movies, I never knew.
I know, right? At least half of this is dependent on outside material like books or TV series that I never saw.
It is a big problem, IMHO. I always enjoyed SW because of lazer swords and big expolosions in space! Millenium Falcon! But while I understood the original trilogy completely, the prequels (well, EPII and EPIII) do not stand up on their own and are utterly confusing. An outsider may be able to follow the general plot, but the general plot only.
Extended universes are always a hard balance to strike. If you make the books and comics and shows too inconsequential, then there is no reason to partake in them. But then if you make them tie-in too much, you risk alienating casual fans. The Halo video game series found that out the hard way. The books filled out the universe, but didn't really factor in to the main plot, plus the game developers often ignored the book canon, resulting in lots of contradictions. Then, when they got to Halo 4, they decided to really make the books matter, but then those who didn't read the books had no clue what the campaign was even about. This resulted in the developer then to backpedal and trash all the Halo 4 plot points in the dumpster in books and comics and even an adult coloring book, and start over again with the overarching plot in Halo 5.
So there is a video game and books. How does any of this tie in to the current TV series streaming on the Paramount Network?
The one thing that never made sense to me was that a Princess could then become a Senator. Is Naboo a monarchy or a democracy? Can you be elected Princess, or is there a royal family and you can elect different members of the family sort of like the House of Lords?
1988RedT2 said:You people do understand that the Star Wars "universe" is a fictional construct?
Of course we do. Doesn't mean we can't discuss the fictional politics of a fictional society. Whether it's fictional or not (ahem), it's a complex system with logical consistencies, inconsistencies, and unknowns.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:NickD said:mtn said:Duke said:VolvoHeretic said:Lol, so that's what those movies where about. I've watched those movies, I never knew.
I know, right? At least half of this is dependent on outside material like books or TV series that I never saw.
It is a big problem, IMHO. I always enjoyed SW because of lazer swords and big expolosions in space! Millenium Falcon! But while I understood the original trilogy completely, the prequels (well, EPII and EPIII) do not stand up on their own and are utterly confusing. An outsider may be able to follow the general plot, but the general plot only.
Extended universes are always a hard balance to strike. If you make the books and comics and shows too inconsequential, then there is no reason to partake in them. But then if you make them tie-in too much, you risk alienating casual fans. The Halo video game series found that out the hard way. The books filled out the universe, but didn't really factor in to the main plot, plus the game developers often ignored the book canon, resulting in lots of contradictions. Then, when they got to Halo 4, they decided to really make the books matter, but then those who didn't read the books had no clue what the campaign was even about. This resulted in the developer then to backpedal and trash all the Halo 4 plot points in the dumpster in books and comics and even an adult coloring book, and start over again with the overarching plot in Halo 5.
So there is a video game and books. How does any of this tie in to the current TV series streaming on the Paramount Network?
Very little. The Halo TV show is a completely different canon that changes pretty much everything.
Example, in the games and books, the Master Chief, John-117, always operates with Blue Team, which is largely made up of Fredric-104, Kelly-087, and Linda-058 (other members come and go through deaths or reassignments)
In the TV show, the Master Chief is instead charge of Silver Team with Vannak-134, Riz-028, and Kai-125. That team and any of those members did not exist until the creation of the TV show.
Duke said:VolvoHeretic said:Lol, so that's what those movies where about. I've watched those movies, I never knew.
I know, right? At least half of this is dependent on outside material like books or TV series that I never saw.
Most of it is in the title scrawls, the rest is in dialogue in the movies. It is not all explicit. The way Palpatine talks about Plagueis never says that HE killed him, but the way the scene plays out strongly implies it.
NickD said:Despite being a bit confusing, the prequels still tell a more coherent story than the sequels
Definitely. I think it could have worked, but it seems the mistake was not having one person do the overall writing for all three - instead it seems like it was written by committee which left it feeling like it was written as they went along. It also felt like the writers pulled crap out of their butts to make their ideas work, but completely ignoring the established Star Wars lore. Luke "force projecting" to fight Kylo Ren and Rey "force transporting" a light saber to Ben Solo. Like WTF did that come from? Adam Driver did an amazing job with what he was given, but it felt like the character should have been so much better.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:The one thing that never made sense to me was that a Princess could then become a Senator. Is Naboo a monarchy or a democracy? Can you be elected Princess, or is there a royal family and you can elect different members of the family sort of like the House of Lords?
She was an elected "Queen" for the human population of her planet. She was then elected as a senator to represent her planet in the galactic senate. Then she died of a broken heart. Not a great character, IMO, but not bad to look at.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:NickD said:Despite being a bit confusing, the prequels still tell a more coherent story than the sequels
Definitely. I think it could have worked, but it seems the mistake was not having one person do the overall writing for all three - instead it seems like it was written by committee which left it feeling like it was written as they went along. It also felt like the writers pulled crap out of their butts to make their ideas work, but completely ignoring the established Star Wars lore. Luke "force projecting" to fight Kylo Ren and Rey "force transporting" a light saber to Ben Solo. Like WTF did that come from? Adam Driver did an amazing job with what he was given, but it felt like the character should have been so much better.
I wouldn't say a single writer, but a single unified vision with something to say.
Other people helped the writing on 4-6. Empire was neither written nor directed by George Lucas. Just based on his story. Martha Lucas freaking saved Star Wars in the edit.
7-9 did a poor job of retreading ground that had been covered better in previous movies. 7 and 9 were just JJ Abrams crashing his action figures together while shouting PEW PEW PEW! Last Jedi spent a bunch of time trying to tell us morals that were actually shown and explored in previous movies. "What if the Jedi weren't that great, and their order needed to die out," Oh, you mean like we got a whole prequel series showing us their hubris? "We'll win by saving what we love instead of trying to destroy what we hate..." Oh, you mean like what Luke did in the climax of Return of the Jedi?
barefootcyborg5000 said:Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:The one thing that never made sense to me was that a Princess could then become a Senator. Is Naboo a monarchy or a democracy? Can you be elected Princess, or is there a royal family and you can elect different members of the family sort of like the House of Lords?
She was an elected "Queen" for the human population of her planet. She was then elected as a senator to represent her planet in the galactic senate. Then she died of a broken heart. Not a great character, IMO, but not bad to look at.
She wasn't a damsel in distress at least. She was willing to pick up a gun and kick ass with the best of them. One theory on her death is that Palpatine basically used the force to reach out and kill her to insure that Anakin/Vader would have no distractions and would wholly be his pawn, or that he siphoned her life force off to keep Anakin alive.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:The one thing that never made sense to me was that a Princess could then become a Senator. Is Naboo a monarchy or a democracy? Can you be elected Princess, or is there a royal family and you can elect different members of the family sort of like the House of Lords?
She is princess/queen of her home world. She becomes a senator in a larger galactic federation of multiple worlds.
Duke said:Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:The one thing that never made sense to me was that a Princess could then become a Senator. Is Naboo a monarchy or a democracy? Can you be elected Princess, or is there a royal family and you can elect different members of the family sort of like the House of Lords?
She is princess/queen of her home world. She becomes a senator in a larger galactic federation of multiple worlds.
Not even clear how much of the planet she's queen of. She wasn't queen of the Gungans on Naboo. Not clear if there are other human nations on the planet.
Thanks guys, this discussion only reinforcing why Rouge 1 was my favorite Star Wars movie - EVERYBODY DIES. Next favorite was Ewoks: The Battle for Endor. I still don't like Luke Skywalker or Jar Jar Binks.
There's only one extended story that we need to fill in the proper gaps:
Like what happened to Manny Both-Hanz
In reply to Beer Baron :
Science fiction in general tends to have a limited view of planet civilizations. Once in awhile there will be a planet with multiple governments, but as a plot point that tends to slow down whatever story narrative the writers are trying tell so usually it's: One Planet; One Govt.
How do you speak anything when your lungs have been vaporized?
Things I never got about the sequels.
-After winning the war against the Empire, the New Republic never really established itself as the new government. Their forces were actually weaker and less organized than the rebellion was, and they still had the same ships. You would think they would have taken the Empire's ships or build new ships. They would have bases. They would be running things from Coruscent. Who is the Supreme Chancellor now? The only one in charge is Leia who is now a General who actually travels with her troops from camp to camp?
-Han Solo was an even bigger mess in the sequels, as though he had learned nothing from winning the war, being a General in the rebellion or just getting older and more mature. He actually looked worse off than he was in the first movie. He had lost the Falcon, broke ties with Princess Leia and the New Republic and was involved in some dangerous get rich quick scheme and other bad guys were out to kill him. Why did he have to do this? He ended the last movie as a hero. I would have expected him to be a much bigger part of rebuilding the New Republic's forces. Probably be some kind of elder advisor to the military by now. Not an aging smuggler. No character development here. No wonder Harrison Ford wanted the character killed off.
-How is it that they want us to believe that Adam Driver is the son of Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher? I know he was a good actor, but no. Just no. The Princess must have cheated on Han with her accountant.
-Who or what is Snoke? He isn't a Sith Lord, although his position would almost require one. Palpatine made him? From what? Clay? A special order from Kamino for an evil clone. If you wanted to be consistent he could at least be the Sith apprentice of Palpatine. That would make more sense.
In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
- I've heard some theories about the New Republic was trying a more limited govt method and it didn't work out so well.
- Han Solo... yeah... I got nothing...
- Ben Solo? Well... usually you look like your parents. Sometimes you don't.
- Rough theory - Snoke was a first-pass clone for Palpatine. There have been some more theories this will get fleshed out more in subsequent Mandalorian seasons as well as other pending series.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Beer Baron :
Science fiction in general tends to have a limited view of planet civilizations. Once in awhile there will be a planet with multiple governments, but as a plot point that tends to slow down whatever story narrative the writers are trying tell so usually it's: One Planet; One Govt.
How do you speak anything when your lungs have been vaporized?
You don't have to explain all of it in one story but you should have something in place. By the time you get to the eight movie, not to mention all the books, animated series and whatever, there should be some idea what your form of government is.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:NickD said:Despite being a bit confusing, the prequels still tell a more coherent story than the sequels
Like WTF did that come from? Adam Driver did an amazing job with what he was given, but it felt like the character should have been so much better.
Wait. Didn't you catch the two lines of expository dialog that explained in detail all about how Luke failed Kylo as a mentor, leading inevitably to his development into a psychopathic man-baby with narcissistic tendencies and poor impulse control?
Yeah, neither did I.
In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
If you mean Naboo, it was mentioned in various story lines in passing. But how the govt operated was never a central story plot, so it was accepted that it just "has a govt and it works." That basically applies to most planets in science fiction. Unless some dysfunction within the planetary govt IS the plot point of the story, it's not a topic given much script time.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
- I've heard some theories about the New Republic was trying a more limited govt method and it didn't work out so well.
- Han Solo... yeah... I got nothing...
- Ben Solo? Well... usually you look like your parents. Sometimes you don't.
- Rough theory - Snoke was a first-pass clone for Palpatine. There have been some more theories this will get fleshed out more in subsequent Mandalorian seasons as well as other pending series.
Ben Solo was actually the one character I liked. He had a lot of angst because of what he had been through. The fact that Luke never really trusted him during his training, then panicked and tried to kill him thinking he had gone to the dark side. That Luke never really got it together as a leader of the Jedi and that Yoda was worried about that from the second movie. Then Luke passed his weaknesses on to Kylo who goes back and forth from the dark side and seems both weaker and less controlled than Grandfather Vader. That all ties together. Then they killed him at the end. I would have liked to see more of him. What were the Knights of Ren and how did that happen? Could he and Rey have rebuilt the Jedi Order together. Would there be further conflict between them as they did so. Would Kylo go back to the dark side and re-start the Sith Order?
They really blew the chance for further movies when they killed Kylo.
1988RedT2 said:You people do understand that the Star Wars "universe" is a fictional construct?
Ummm......
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
- Ben Solo? Well... usually you look like your parents. Sometimes you don't.
Check out Harrison Ford in Apocalpyse Now, at a younger age.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Beer Baron :
Science fiction in general tends to have a limited view of planet civilizations. Once in awhile there will be a planet with multiple governments, but as a plot point that tends to slow down whatever story narrative the writers are trying tell so usually it's: One Planet; One Govt.
How do you speak anything when your lungs have been vaporized?
You don't have to explain all of it in one story but you should have something in place. By the time you get to the eight movie, not to mention all the books, animated series and whatever, there should be some idea what your form of government is.
There is a really funny webcomic called Darths and Droids. It is a chronological rescript of the entire movie series from the perspective of it being a really bad RPG campaign. And it works.
The one player's annoying little sister wanted to play, and she came up with this fantastical idea of a planet that was all water with a sponge of rock on the surface, and the humans had a 16 year old girl who had been elected Queen.
I mean, come on now...
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