1992+ C4 v others for RWD AutoX/HDPE/Track use?

Hi all, I'm looking for my first dedicated AutoX/HPDE/Track Day/bracket road racing car.  My budget is in the rather loose neighborhood of $5-6k (car only, no mods/upgrades/consumables) depending on what is actually available when I buy, as I'm trying to understand the market of what I may want for a winter purchase.  I'm looking for something torquey enough that poor throttle control will spin me if I screw it up.  Long story short, I've got a manufacturer driving license that says I can drive cars for my role well enough, but while I passed everything I really should learn throttle control on high torque RWD.

I'd love to run AutoX in a fairly unprepped class.  If I ever choose to go to a door-to-door competition license, it'll be replaced with someone else's project.  Its goal is simply a toy car that I can also cruise Woodward on nice nights with, that when I reach my driving ability, won't be too outclassed in AutoX.  Only car system performance requirement is ABS.  Only safety equipment it'll see is a helmet, and a bolt in roll bar if its a convertible and required.

Is looking at a LT1 6spd C4 Corvette for such thing as ridiculous as many would have me believe?  As a previous owner of a Mustang, I was originally heading that direction, late 90s to mid 00s fit my budget and requirements.  As one with many AutoX friends, a Miata was also suggested, and while I love the idea if I were out for pure handling, I'm feeling it is too "forgiving" for learning throttle control.  Also in Michigan, rust has claimed many of the Mustang and Miatas.  When looking at that budget tho, the C4 just stick out as an obvious power/performance/kept nice to price range.  Are there anything else not being a Porsche 944 that fit to my criteria I'm missing?  Am I silly for not just buying the Miata, or for locking in on a C4?

Tires have been considered, and while they'll still suck, an employee discount knocks roughly 50% off Tire Rack pricing of certain brands, so C4 isn't as obscene as it could be.  The optical spark system has also been weighed, I can bite the bullet and replace that with a better unit if need be. 

Lastly, I don't consider the public's view of C4 ugliness or Miata girliness at all, they're both appealing to me!

In reply to AnthonyGS :

Not to mention tire budget...

AnthonyGS said:

Having owned both a C4 and a Miata you can’t imagine two cars that are so different. 

At your local autoX uncorrected times will be closer than you would think.  The Miata will be tossable and you will keep the gas pedal buried 90% of the time.  The Corvette will require smoothness and you will be trying to keep the rear end from passing the fromt a lot more. 

I think you should own both at some point.  

Ha, I think I should own both too.  Gonna take a bigger garage and not living in a condo, tho!

I know the cars are radically different, they just both fit into my $5kish, RWD, somewhat common, and ABS parameters.  Thanks for confirming my belief that the Miata is basically a bury the throttle and go car, for this go around that isn't what I'm quite looking for.  More looking for personal development than winning or placing tops in timing in AutoX.  If I wanted to do that I'd just go buy a Fiesta/Focus ST as a dual purpose daily.

And yeah tires have been well considered.  For the number of events I'd realistically do in a season, and my hefty discount, I still think it is manageable.  I don't envision jumping up to racing compound tires anytime in the near future.

You could actually swing a C5 if you were patient. There are a number in the SF Bay Area Craigs for 8-9k. I saw a Z06 last week for 8.5 large. I would imagine if you were in the right place at the right time with 6-7k in your pocket someone would sell you their C5. The C5 is a much MUCH better car than the C4. You will learn throttle control with one of those dogs...

The C5 thing is something I've considered.  If the opportunity pops up, I'd definitely look into it.  Just didn't mention it earlier cause it wasn't a regularly obtainable item in that price range

AnthonyGS said:You should also be looking really hard at 98-02 F bodies, the live axle cousin of the C5.  They autocross just fine and you will learn fast....  or spin a lot.  Lot’s of folks will tell you F stock cars can’t handle, but I find those people are misinformed.  

 

Thanks, I'll put them on my filtered CL perusing list.  A quick look puts the ones nearby at pretty much C5 prices tho.  While I'm always willing to consider expanding a budget for a great valued car, I've already effectively doubled my couple months ago thoughts of a $3500 Mustang/Miata. Not sure how much more the wife will tolerate, at least without selling my motorcycle 

Always open to other suggestions too.  Am I wrong in thinking 944s and Boxsters come with higher than Corvette maintenance costs and are only slightly better than Miatas in my throttle control quest?

jefnvk said:

Thanks, I'll put them on my filtered CL perusing list.  A quick look puts the ones nearby at pretty much C5 prices tho.  While I'm always willing to consider expanding a budget for a great valued car, I've already effectively doubled my couple months ago thoughts of a $3500 Mustang/Miata. Not sure how much more the wife will tolerate, at least without selling my motorcycle 

Reasonably priced 4th gens are out there. I sold my rust-free (bought it out of Kentucky) higher-mileage 2000 Camaro this past spring in the Detroit-area for a tad over your budget. It had tons of parts (cam/headers/exhaust on the LS1, Konis, Strano springs and bars, lots of UMI parts, fresh Azenis) and I totally took a bath on it.

Why did I take a bath? Because I was being price-shopped by buyers on a bunch of local cars. Maybe it was a spring-time thing, but keep your eyes peeled.

I ran the car in CAMC, but with just the shocks, springs, and bars, it would be a riot in STP. Super-fun car to hoon around in. 

Why did I sell it? To buy a C5 

My only data point is that I kind of like C4's so I seek them out when I see people playing with them. So far, every single C4 owner I've talked to has told me to just by a C5 instead. By the time you get a C4 to come close to a C5 performance wise you're in deeper than you would have been just buying a C5 to start with. Not that fast is everything, but if you're ok with slow, just get the Miata. 

To go along with what Seth said, before I bought my 85 I talked to numerous friends & GRMers who’s owned and/or autoxed a C4, and every single one of them had similar tales of heartbreak and woe with their car. I can now add myself to that list.

Meh, for stock-class autocross I’d choose C4 over any flavor of C5 except Z06.  Why?  Front tire - standard C5 doesn’t have enough of it. A well-driven C4 can keep up with the C5 until you get to the Z06. I did a lot of NCCC autox in the mid-2000s, fwiw. The best C4 driver I knew had an 89 Z51 and went back to it after a few months in a C5.

I had an '88 C4 for years and really enjoyed it. Won my class for the season in autocrossing too. Car was fairly stock, just freshened the shocks, better exhaust and Falken RT615K tires.  I did add the bigger 13" brakes and some ducting for track days later on. There are kits now to use C5 brakes on the front. Consumables are cheaper that way.

On the LT1 cars, smaller tires and rims are standard in the front unless you find a Z51 0r Z07 car. A second pair of rear wheels fixes this issue. Also, the 13" brakes were standard for 95-96. Add the Z51 power steering cooler too. I wish I had.

Thanks for the great info!

WRT performance, I doubt a C4 is going to be too disappointing, at least in the near term.  Most powerful thing I've owned was a 2012 V6 Mustang.  While the engine claimed power is similar, I know the 215s on the Mustang just didn't stick.  If it becomes too easy of a car for me, that's an issue I can always deal with a couple years down the road.  That said, as I stated earlier if the right C5 popped up, I would have no issue nabbing it.
 

Z51/Z07 pack on any C4 I'd buy would be a requirement.  While I did state 92+ earlier, the 89 Z51 seems to be one exception I've convinced myself to make.

No interest in the ZR1, while they seem like a marvel of engineering, I don't want to deal with their scarcity or premium that puts them over a C5

I had a c4 of that vintage. I ran RA1’s in a square setup (275 width?). Z06 brake upgrade, bolstering dampers. 

It might have been the tires, but the car was VERY well balanced - I was surprised with how similar it drove to my Miata, to be honest. The power was different, to be sure, but most lt1 cars run high 13sec 1/4 mile at 10x mph stock - so not rockets by modern standards.

If all I did was track days and autox, I might have kept it. But I also wanted something I could stand to spend time in daily, and frankly hated the car for that purpose. It rattled  and squeaked and didn’t fit me well. Previous car to it was an e36 m3 (the car), which was much more enjoyable all around for me.

Nathan JansenvanDoorn said:

I had a c4 of that vintage. I ran RA1’s in a square setup (275 width?). Z06 brake upgrade, bolstering dampers.

 Hmm, guess I didn't look at enough years of C4 earlier, thought they were all square setups.  Guess that ended in 92.

The 275/40/17 dont look too expensive for my next couple years goals, I can get into 300ish treadware, what Tire Rack describes as UHP summer tires, for under $90 with my discount from a mainstream mfg.  Can get under $80 with touring tires.  Hoosier A/R, tho

Anyone know the legality of setting up a 93/later C4 with a square setup and sticking to a street class?  I'll have to dig into the rule book if its not easy answer.

My brother and I ran a 94 in HPDE for a few years. 

The only issue we had was the power steering fluid over heating.  Someone mentioned a PS cooler but I had the PS pump modified by a company called TurnOne out of Michigan IIRC.  The stock pump was designed for low speed parking lot ease and over spun in long high rpm situations.  TurnOne fixed that and we never had an issue again.

At most events we shared the car which meant it was on track typically 2/3rds of every hour.  We found it to be very reliable and only had to wrench at the track one time due to brake rotor cracks.  I did buy the kit to upgrade to the C5 front brakes.  There was (about 10 years ago) quite a bit of HPDE type mods available.  We lightly modded the chassis and suspension but never touched the engine.  I think we autocrossed it twice for shakedown reasons and never cared about classing so mods were not limited for us.

Bottom line is I have nothing bad to say about the C4 as an HPDE car.  It was not a great street car although the motor was fun.  We eventually drifted out of HPDEs and I bought an NA Miata as my toy which better aligns with my interests; lightweight and tossable.  The C4 was stored 40 miles from me and was rarely driven the last few years of the 9 years we owned it.  My brother eventually traded the car for a lot less than what is was worth in order to buy his toy.  There were some nice mods still on the car as I didn't have the time or ambition to swap back to stock.

I'm in the minority but I think the C4 is much better looking than the C5 but I will concede that the C5 is a better car overall.

I still have the 94 shop manual if you buy one.

+1 for going up to a C5 for an easier ownership experience. The Miata is one of those cars where you can almost use the gas pedal like a switch, so that won't teach you throttle control...unless it's a V8-swapped Miata, that would teach you plenty of throttle control!

I own both a C4 and a C5 Z06.  The LS motor is light years beyond both the LT1 and the L98 motors and is worth the cost of entry in a heartbeat.  That being said my C4 (85) felt a lot closer to a Miata.  Good communication through the steering, great handling and very predictable.  The handling is also better than people expect, it doesn't feel like it due to the way the car creaks and flexes but the tires stay in good contact with the ground.

If I was shopping from scratch for a C4 an 89-91 with a 6 speed is a pretty good option, 89 is last year with the digital dash, 90 has the later interior and 91 has the later body panels.  I'd steer clear of 84-87 because it has a different wheel offset making it a bit tricky to find cheap 17" wheels, 84 has crossfire injection which is generally worth avoiding, 85 has a lot of one year only oddities (cast iron heads, 2 piece rear main seal, different ECM than the later cars, one year MAF sensor that costs a mint, one year EGR valve, single piston front brakes).  

In the LT1 cars I'd look for a 95-96 because they came with a vented opti out of the box and really are just well sorted and pretty reliable cars, the 96 has the softest suspension of the lot though.  

I love driving Miatas they're a blast, however I do find I miss the torque. 

dclafleur said:

If I was shopping from scratch for a C4 an 89-91 with a 6 speed is a pretty good option, 89 is last year with the digital dash, 90 has the later interior and 91 has the later body panels.  I'd steer clear of 84-87 because it has a different wheel offset making it a bit tricky to find cheap 17" wheels, 84 has crossfire injection which is generally worth avoiding, 85 has a lot of one year only oddities (cast iron heads, 2 piece rear main seal, different ECM than the later cars, one year MAF sensor that costs a mint, one year EGR valve, single piston front brakes).  

In the LT1 cars I'd look for a 95-96 because they came with a vented opti out of the box and really are just well sorted and pretty reliable cars, the 96 has the softest suspension of the lot though. 

89 is the earliest I'd go, and even then I'd only do it for a Z51.  I haven't read anything that would encourage me to go with the 4+3 tranny, other than perhaps an outrageous too good of a deal to pass up scenario.

I'd really like to keep it in the later interiors/dashboards, but those are a second consideration behind things that actually make it go.

look, I don't know anything about anything, so let's get that out of the way.

but I have an '03 Z4 with the 3 liter and at 225hp / 3009 lbs it's not fast by today's standards but MAN it's a blast to drive on the street and it was too much for me on the local road course. I say it was too much because I was constantly kicking out the tail coming out of corners and it was fast enough to where I could overtake in straights and easily overshoot the next corner.

You can get into them for $4. That said, I'm afraid of something expensive breaking so I'll be selling it once I get around to fixing a few things. Also, the HP jumped in '06 to 261 and the Ms have 338 hp and LSD which would be *incredible* but NOT near the $4k

I have an auto which I wouldn't recommend- the manumatic is too slow to shift to where I want it and won't keep its gear if you're on the gas too much; it will downshift for you.

IRRC, there was a Monster Miata with a low compression cylinder (hey, one out of eights not bad...) in the latest GRM for 3500 bucks. I was sorely tempted.

That would satisfy nearly all of your requirements!

OP.  If you're still considering a C4 and need to stay stock here's some suspension info.

https://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/c4/susp_chart.html

In reply to Adrift :

Good to see some actual numbers relating to the models people hold in high regard.  I always appreciate objective measurements!

And yeah, barring some sort of deal on a C5 popping up, this hasn't really discouraged me from my original notion.  I do find it interesting that no one has encouraged the Mustang, tho, thought they'd get some more love.

Corvette is a big sports car. Miata is a little sports car. Mustang is a different animal all together from either one. Fun as hell, but decidedly not a sports car. 

mazdeuce - Seth said:

Corvette is a big sports car. Miata is a little sports car. Mustang is a different animal all together from either one. Fun as hell, but decidedly not a sports car. 

Fair enough!  Although, the car that started this whole throttle control quest was a late model track pack Mustang, guess I'll see how much "sportier" a Vette or Miata is :P

Maybe we just got distracted? Certainly any of the V8 Mustangs, or even the modern V6 ones will teach you throttle control. The thing is people get tempted to put the biggest stickiest tires on them and then inevitably you go looking for the myriad of companies that want to help you spend money. 

One of my all time favorite cars was a 5.0 Fox body that I took for two runs at and autocross school that I was instructing at. A students car that he had just bought, a completely stock nearly barn find car that was on stock size tires (so maybe 205's) that were ok, but not autocross tires by any stretch. I rode with him and he was hesitant and not smooth at all with his inputs. We got to the part of the day where the instructor took the wheel for two runs and that car was absolutely brilliant. Come out of a corner and squeeze the throttle until you feel the rear pick up angle and just hold it there while the car accelerates and straightens out. More angle, more throttle. Just perfect. That car could have been made fast but it would have required grip which would have ruined the balance. I've driven a handful of Mustangs on AX courses and always enjoy the lower grip cars more. 

One thing I loooove is the CMC class that NASA runs. Mustangs and Camaros on a max 255 tire. It's pretty easy to have more chassis than tire and a lot more motor than chassis. They're a great class if you want to progress from DE to wheel to wheel as you can start in a street car and build it to TT and then to CMC as you get more experience. We also have huge fields in Texas region which helps it be awesome. Standing start of 30 V8 pony cars? Yes please.