I don't know if the stewards had the power to do this but maybe just telling Vettel to give the position to Lewis right after his off then let him try to gain it back, at least we would have had a good battel to the end.
wae said:dean1484 said:wvumtnbkr said:I am a huge Hamilton fan.
That penalty was garbage. It shouldn't even apply. That penalty is for coming back onto the track after an incident that you need to purposely rejoin. I would argue that it was one incident and that ruling shouldn't apply.
Meaning, like they said on the race broadcast, if you spun, don't pull out on the racing line in front of a car at speed.
I don't think it should apply to a hairy moment where the incident took you off track for a split second and generally back on where you would have been.
The problem is that then drivers can leave the racing surface (cut corners) and use it to hold the lead. Like I said it sucks but they have to have the rule. At this level these drivers would exploit it if the rule was not in place.
I'm not an fia rules expert, but isn't that what the leaving the track and gaining an advantage is for? That should have been the call there (if they had to call anything).
Exactly. But he didn't gain an advantage.
wvumtnbkr said:wae said:dean1484 said:wvumtnbkr said:I am a huge Hamilton fan.
That penalty was garbage. It shouldn't even apply. That penalty is for coming back onto the track after an incident that you need to purposely rejoin. I would argue that it was one incident and that ruling shouldn't apply.
Meaning, like they said on the race broadcast, if you spun, don't pull out on the racing line in front of a car at speed.
I don't think it should apply to a hairy moment where the incident took you off track for a split second and generally back on where you would have been.
The problem is that then drivers can leave the racing surface (cut corners) and use it to hold the lead. Like I said it sucks but they have to have the rule. At this level these drivers would exploit it if the rule was not in place.
I'm not an fia rules expert, but isn't that what the leaving the track and gaining an advantage is for? That should have been the call there (if they had to call anything).
Exactly. But he didn't gain an advantage.
So does that mean if the leader makes a mistake, it's ok to cut the corners? The leader can't gain an advantage just because he's leading, so therefore he should be able to violate the track limits whever he wants....
That does not make sense.
Plus, he did gain an advantage- had he not forced Lewis into a hard brake, Vettel would have been passed. And that's the advantage that he was penalized for.
First off, I am a Hamilton fan and generally cannot stand Vettel at all.
That out of the way, that call was complete and utter balogna. Vettel errored off of the track (as he is prone to do) and did everything he could to not crash into the wall. Hamilton saw all of this happen, and instead of checking up and making sure he didn't get collected in the crash, he tried pushing to the outside to pass. If Vettel hadn't have collected the car, he would have crashed AND Hamilton would have been caught between Vettel and the wall. Hamilton should have braked earlier and would still have had the ability to pass on the inside and likely make it stick anyway and at the very least kept himself from being collected in the shunt. His stupid super-late-braking stunt seemed a little on purpose in order to force the penalty...
alfadriver said:wvumtnbkr said:wae said:dean1484 said:wvumtnbkr said:I am a huge Hamilton fan.
That penalty was garbage. It shouldn't even apply. That penalty is for coming back onto the track after an incident that you need to purposely rejoin. I would argue that it was one incident and that ruling shouldn't apply.
Meaning, like they said on the race broadcast, if you spun, don't pull out on the racing line in front of a car at speed.
I don't think it should apply to a hairy moment where the incident took you off track for a split second and generally back on where you would have been.
The problem is that then drivers can leave the racing surface (cut corners) and use it to hold the lead. Like I said it sucks but they have to have the rule. At this level these drivers would exploit it if the rule was not in place.
I'm not an fia rules expert, but isn't that what the leaving the track and gaining an advantage is for? That should have been the call there (if they had to call anything).
Exactly. But he didn't gain an advantage.
So does that mean if the leader makes a mistake, it's ok to cut the corners? The leader can't gain an advantage just because he's leading, so therefore he should be able to violate the track limits whever he wants....
That does not make sense.
Plus, he did gain an advantage- had he not forced Lewis into a hard brake, Vettel would have been passed. And that's the advantage that he was penalized for.
I believe the definition of advantage is a time advantage or gaining a position. Neither happened.
wvumtnbkr said:alfadriver said:wvumtnbkr said:wae said:dean1484 said:wvumtnbkr said:I am a huge Hamilton fan.
That penalty was garbage. It shouldn't even apply. That penalty is for coming back onto the track after an incident that you need to purposely rejoin. I would argue that it was one incident and that ruling shouldn't apply.
Meaning, like they said on the race broadcast, if you spun, don't pull out on the racing line in front of a car at speed.
I don't think it should apply to a hairy moment where the incident took you off track for a split second and generally back on where you would have been.
The problem is that then drivers can leave the racing surface (cut corners) and use it to hold the lead. Like I said it sucks but they have to have the rule. At this level these drivers would exploit it if the rule was not in place.
I'm not an fia rules expert, but isn't that what the leaving the track and gaining an advantage is for? That should have been the call there (if they had to call anything).
Exactly. But he didn't gain an advantage.
So does that mean if the leader makes a mistake, it's ok to cut the corners? The leader can't gain an advantage just because he's leading, so therefore he should be able to violate the track limits whever he wants....
That does not make sense.
Plus, he did gain an advantage- had he not forced Lewis into a hard brake, Vettel would have been passed. And that's the advantage that he was penalized for.
I believe the definition of advantage is a time advantage or gaining a position. Neither happened.
If that is the FIA definition, then they seriously need to revise that. Blowing a chicane like that in order to prevent yourself from getting out-braked is an advantage. Vettel carried more speed into the corner than he had traction to support so he wound up basically short-cutting through the grass in order to maintain his positon. That should be considered gaining an advantage if it isn't already.
Would Vettel have re-entered the track in the same way if there was a 10 sec gap to Hamilton?
Hamilton fan. Vettel chose to try and hold the lead instead of slowing to control his car. If Vettel slowed enough to leave about 0.5 metters more room then Hamilton could have stayed on power and might or might not have made the pass. That would have been great. Vettel for once could have raced Hamilton hard and with Hamilton already having a good flat spot it would have been interesting.
Even if Vettel didn't intend to stay on power and come flying across the track. He made an error which caused him almost put Hamilton in the wall.
The penalty was valid for a sport. This is a sport guys. Vettel has shown he doesn't mind breaking rules (or weigh bridge scales!
) so he needed to be reminded that he should try harder next time to stay left during re-entry.
He lost to Button one year due to a mistake. This year he figured he would just cut the track.
Didn't feel any thing negative other than disgusted by the blood in the water reaction of the press. Even the drivers showed their disgust at the press' bloodlust. LeClerc didn't even get a chance to talk? Really!?! He just podiumed and the interviewer blows him off.
wvumtnbkr said:alfadriver said:wvumtnbkr said:wae said:dean1484 said:wvumtnbkr said:I am a huge Hamilton fan.
That penalty was garbage. It shouldn't even apply. That penalty is for coming back onto the track after an incident that you need to purposely rejoin. I would argue that it was one incident and that ruling shouldn't apply.
Meaning, like they said on the race broadcast, if you spun, don't pull out on the racing line in front of a car at speed.
I don't think it should apply to a hairy moment where the incident took you off track for a split second and generally back on where you would have been.
The problem is that then drivers can leave the racing surface (cut corners) and use it to hold the lead. Like I said it sucks but they have to have the rule. At this level these drivers would exploit it if the rule was not in place.
I'm not an fia rules expert, but isn't that what the leaving the track and gaining an advantage is for? That should have been the call there (if they had to call anything).
Exactly. But he didn't gain an advantage.
So does that mean if the leader makes a mistake, it's ok to cut the corners? The leader can't gain an advantage just because he's leading, so therefore he should be able to violate the track limits whever he wants....
That does not make sense.
Plus, he did gain an advantage- had he not forced Lewis into a hard brake, Vettel would have been passed. And that's the advantage that he was penalized for.
I believe the definition of advantage is a time advantage or gaining a position. Neither happened.
That was a time advantage. Otherwise, Hamilton would not have been forced to brake.
Had Vettel not crossed the track, there was no way he was keeping Lewis behind. Intentional or not, it does not matter- it was a pretty easy pass after that mistake.
Ricciardo YES! Great drive and result. I liked his battle with Bottas and Gasly. Wish I saw more of his fight with Hulk.
Gasly's race just fell apart after pitting and somehow being stuck behind Stroll for most of the race. Verstappen had a better strategy to use to move forward with.
Haas just falling back to battle Williams soon.
Kvyaat has never been a driver I liked or even respected. BUT he has made a couple very strong and clean passes this year. He also showed his bad tendencies, but I don't remember seeing anything good so two memorable passes this year is a big deal.
Good race overall fun battle for the lead mid race and many good midfield battles throughout.
A time advantage is when you go faster. He didn't. He went through that sector slower then any other lap.
How would y'all feel if he d idnt touch grass and just went way deep in a corner and still came way over like that? Same exact line and trajectory, just paved and no grass.
F1 is all about marketing. If they are gonna ruin a possible 30 lap long battle for the lead by giving such controversial penalties, they will have less people watching to market to.
However, we are all talking about it....
wvumtnbkr said:How would y'all feel if he d idnt touch grass and just went way deep in a corner and still came way over like that? Same exact line and trajectory, just paved and no grass.
I heard the one commenter repeatedly saying something like this. I guess I didn't see how it would make a difference in my viewpoint. Other than to think Vettel would have gained a larger gap on Hamilton by cutting the corner on pavement vs grass.
Am I missing some point that you are trying to make?
wvumtnbkr said:A time advantage is when you go faster. He didn't. He went through that sector slower then any other lap.
How would y'all feel if he d idnt touch grass and just went way deep in a corner and still came way over like that? Same exact line and trajectory, just paved and no grass.
F1 is all about marketing. If they are gonna ruin a possible 30 lap long battle for the lead by giving such controversial penalties, they will have less people watching to market to.
However, we are all talking about it....
How is preventing a pass by making your competitor check up not an advantage?? I'm confused by that. It's just like a blocking penalty.
And here's a pretty good explanation- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOT134F0jKU
Which basically is that the FIA had few choices but to call the penalty. If you don't want this to be a penalty, change the rules.
He was going through the grass, it’s not like he could have done much to slow the car or change direction. I was impressed that he didn’t stuff it into the wall.
This one didn’t get a penalty when a clear advantage was there.
alfadriver said:wvumtnbkr said:A time advantage is when you go faster. He didn't. He went through that sector slower then any other lap.
How would y'all feel if he d idnt touch grass and just went way deep in a corner and still came way over like that? Same exact line and trajectory, just paved and no grass.
F1 is all about marketing. If they are gonna ruin a possible 30 lap long battle for the lead by giving such controversial penalties, they will have less people watching to market to.
However, we are all talking about it....
How is preventing a pass by making your competitor check up not an advantage?? I'm confused by that. It's just like a blocking penalty.
That's not how f1 works. Blocking penalties are when you make multiple moves on a straightaway with emphasis on moves in the braking zone.
You can brake check or block the crap out of your opponent all day long. He'll, as the lead car you are allowed to run them off the track if they aren't fully along side of you.
Advantage is a word that is defined by the rules. It is not the common interpretation of anything that benefits you id an advantage. Must have gone faster or gained a place is the gist of advantage.
The point about the grass is that there would be no application of the unsafe reentry if there was no grass.
In reply to wvumtnbkr :
Ok, but the rules are also pretty clear that Vettel broke them, and got a 5 second penalty. Unsafe re-entry to the track- he was not under control, therefore unsafe. Especially since he ran a car off the road due to the unsafe reentry. Everyone says that Vettel was not in control when he got back on the track- which is exactly what an unsafe return to the track is- if you are not controlling it, it can't be safe. Done.
Not sure how the grass matters- should all the corners get paved so that a driver won't pay a penalty for making mistakes? And it's not as if this grass is some kind of new thing- it's been there forever.
And I'm not sure what version of F1 you watch- I've not seen blocking be allowed, other than one move, and I've never seen it allowed that you can intentionally drive another car off the track and not get penalized. Both of those are kind of crappy moves.
Still, if you don't like the ruling, then the rules need to change.
This is how the race stewards saw it:
The Stewards, having received a report from the Race Director, have considered the following matter and determine the following:
No / Driver: 5 - Sebastian Vettel
Competitor: Scuderia Ferrari
Time: 15:13
Session: Race
Fact: Car 5 left the track, re-joined unsafely and forced another car off track.
Offence: Involved in an incident as defined by Article 38.1 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.
Decision: 5 second time penalty (2 point awarded, 7 points in total for the 12 month period).
Reason: The stewards reviewed video evidence and determined that Car 5, left the track at turn 3, rejoined the track at turn 4 in an unsafe manner and forced car 44 off track. Car 44 had to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
In reply to wvumtnbkr :
One other thing- I've looked in the sporting regulations for the word "advantage"- and the word only is found 3 times- twice in the same paragraph about a car rejoining the race. No time does it actually define it as a time thing. You can look at them, too- https://www.fia.com/file/78014/download/26183
So the "advantage" can be interpreted as the stewards see it fit. Time, pass prevention, whatever.
I'm coming around. My change in attitude came when I said to myself, "What if that was paved instead of grass?" Blowing a chicane is always a problem. Blow the Daytona bus stop. come to a full stop, then proceed.
Maybe the issue is defining what "off" is. Two wheels? Four? Eyes of the steward?
Lewis pushed him hard enough Seb made an off course excursion. Give up the position, or get a time penalty. The race result ends up the same either way. In this case, I would surely stay ahead until the stewards made me give the spot up. Other cases are a bit more obvious to everyone.
Lets explore Monaco. If Max had managed to make the left after he pushed Lewis through the chicane, Lewis would have been obliged to give up the spot. Would we have had this big discussion? (He asks,
knowing full well the answer.)
The grass only matters because if it was paved, it would probably have not been considered an off track excursion and therefore would not have been considered a re entry.
In reply to Streetwiseguy :
If they had to give a penalty, I would have much rather seen a typical gaining an advantage penalty of giving up the place on-track right away. That would have at least given us a battle to watch instead of effectively determining the outcome with a quarter of the race yet to come.
It was a great race, possibly the best one of the 2019 season so far. The ruling that came down on Vettel, is hard but could go either way depending on how you look at it. A lot has been said about it already, and both sides have been explained, rather well. So here is my take. I'll make it short.
When Vettel went off track, he could have let up when re-entering the track, get the car under control and continue down the left. Would that have let Hamiton by? Yes, more than likely. Here is what would have happened in the end. Vettel had the faster car, no doubt, for the first time this season the Ferrari was fastest on the straights. When Hamilton was 0.5 seconds behind Vettel after the hairpin, he couldn't get past with the DRS open. Compare that to Verstappen and the Renaults on the same straight with the same 0.52 second gap, Verstappen was by. If Vettel came back on a bit slower (Yes racing driver, What is slow?) he would have been behind his rival Hamilton, who had a slower car, with worse tires due to lock ups and with 20 laps or so to go, I think Vettel, barring any more errors, would have been able to make the pass for the lead before the checkered.
It's how I see it, but hey, I'm a McLaren fan.
wvumtnbkr said:The grass only matters because if it was paved, it would probably have not been considered an off track excursion and therefore would not have been considered a re entry.
Sure it would. There are other turns that have paved insides, but there's still a requirement for an safe reentry. Some even have very defined paths where you are supposed to go so that you can get back on the track correctly. For this case, off the track- grass or pavement don't matter.
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