Olemiss540 said:ClearWaterMS said:The average price of a new vehicle in 2023 is $48,759.
How do people do this? Wow.
Because there are still plenty of great cars in the $24-28k range that do everything you need/want.
Olemiss540 said:ClearWaterMS said:The average price of a new vehicle in 2023 is $48,759.
How do people do this? Wow.
Because there are still plenty of great cars in the $24-28k range that do everything you need/want.
LukeGT said:In reply to Olemiss540 :
You're definitely right that there are still plenty of BMW's that can still be had in the 5k price range. The issue with those is that they often double in cost by the time you get them up to par in terms of maintenance, to where they're "safely" able to handle a track day.
And the off the beaten path stuff is usually poorly documented online. Parts support is poor, and older stuff has to deal with poor quality OEM replacement parts. It is a much tougher road to hack if you're not already a descent mechanic. It can be a fun project, but I wouldn't send someone looking to get on track for the first time down that path.
Olemiss540 said:ClearWaterMS said:The average price of a new vehicle in 2023 is $48,759.
How do people do this? Wow.
longer and longer loan payments. 20 years ago 5 years was the upper end of "normal" car loans with 3 years being ideal. Today 5 years is ideal with 7 years+ being not unheard of.
also with American's increasing reliance on debt that means that we are increasingly seeing an increase in the cost of things as debt has a tendency to minimize the perception of burden.
Olemiss540 said:ClearWaterMS said:The average price of a new vehicle in 2023 is $48,759.
How do people do this? Wow.
Almost 14 million vehicles were sold last year. I'd bet if you looked at the bell curve of incomes in the US, most of the car sales are on the right side of it.
If you are supply chain/production constrained, it doesn't make any sense to target the middle.
I'd love to see a deep dive into this.
Just a few random google datapoints:
The average income of a new vehicle buyer is now $124,000. (2022)
However, most vehicle buyers in 2022 had household incomes above the population norm: 67% of new-vehicle buyers had incomes over $75,000, while 55% of used-vehicle buyers were in the over $75,000 bracket. (same source as above, not finding a lot of data on this)
LukeGT said:In reply to Olemiss540 :
You're definitely right that there are still plenty of BMW's that can still be had in the 5k price range. The issue with those is that they often double in cost by the time you get them up to par in terms of maintenance, to where they're "safely" able to handle a track day.
Compared to the $5k track day specials 10 years ago? People mention e30's as an example, I would say the cost of maintaining the cars I mentioned are probably in line with an e30 10 years ago when inflation is considered to those a decade ago. For the first time track drivers, may have a radiator let go, may need some brake parts, may need some control arms, but its not like you need to cage, MCS coilover, and BBK these things to get some laps in.
Give me a grand and an e36 325i and I will get you on track for the year. Talk about inflation, try a 2 day HPDE at Barber with PCA now running SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS.
In reply to theruleslawyer :
In this age of the internet there is a forum for nearly every car ever made.
I race one of the least popular Datsuns and there is a Facebook page for the car itself, the engine series as well as one for people who race Datsuns.
All a car needs to be fun on track is sways bars, shocks and decent brakes.
I mentioned my son is tracking his LS400; the only mods to the car were some budget coilovers it came with. We put some track pads on it and that's it.
ProDarwin said:Olemiss540 said:ClearWaterMS said:The average price of a new vehicle in 2023 is $48,759.
How do people do this? Wow.
Almost 14 million vehicles were sold last year. I'd bet if you looked at the bell curve of incomes in the US, most of the car sales are on the right side of it.
If you are supply chain/production constrained, it doesn't make any sense to target the middle.I'd love to see a deep dive into this.
Just a few random google datapoints:
The average income of a new vehicle buyer is now $124,000. (2022)However, most vehicle buyers in 2022 had household incomes above the population norm: 67% of new-vehicle buyers had incomes over $75,000, while 55% of used-vehicle buyers were in the over $75,000 bracket. (same source as above, not finding a lot of data on this)
Understand that people making median household incomes of $75k are not buying the median new car. But even making 125k, buying a 50k car is absurdity. Cant understand people paying monthly debt loads that include 1,000 dollar a month car payment (for ONE car at 7% over 5 years) unless they are making $200k+.
With current interest rates, seems this hamster wheel would have to stop eventually. Hopefully not catastrophically.
ProDarwin said:Olemiss540 said:ClearWaterMS said:The average price of a new vehicle in 2023 is $48,759.
How do people do this? Wow.
Almost 14 million vehicles were sold last year. I'd bet if you looked at the bell curve of incomes in the US, most of the car sales are on the right side of it.
If you are supply chain/production constrained, it doesn't make any sense to target the middle.I'd love to see a deep dive into this.
Just a few random google datapoints:
The average income of a new vehicle buyer is now $124,000. (2022)However, most vehicle buyers in 2022 had household incomes above the population norm: 67% of new-vehicle buyers had incomes over $75,000, while 55% of used-vehicle buyers were in the over $75,000 bracket. (same source as above, not finding a lot of data on this)
so what you're saying is that car buying like home ownership is sadly shifting away from the median of the population.
I'm hoarding old cars that can be racecars. I'm sure I'm not the only one here doing that. 
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:I'm hoarding old cars that can be racecars. I'm sure I'm not the only one here doing that.
by reducing supply its YOUR fault that demand is going up... shame
ClearWaterMS said:Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:I'm hoarding old cars that can be racecars. I'm sure I'm not the only one here doing that.
by reducing supply its YOUR fault that demand is going up... shame
What can I say. I don't have $48,000 to buy a car. I paid $3,000 for my Porsche 914 and $2,500 for my Miata. Those will be my racecars. I know a lot of people who race cars they bought for less than $5,000. They are still out there. Crapcan races and the local rallycross group seems to have grids full of them.
accordionfolder said:There's many versions of track day/race car dedicated cars that don't require a truck and trailer. I towed my track cars with a tow dolly and a cx-5, a Mazdaspeed 3, and a cx-9 before I ever went to a truck and trailer. In CA there are a bunch of folks that flat tow their track cars that I encountered when I lived out there, presumably because they were working around space constraints.
This is a really good point. My first "track only" car was a 1.6L Miata that the previous owner got about 94% to being a Spec Miata before selling it. I paid $5k for it and it still had a title and tags. I put a few more hours of prep work into it and drove it to the track for two years for track days. When I got tired of that, I got a tow dolly and pulled it behind my minivan.
I've never found having a dual-purpose vehicle to be all that fun, unless you have another vehicle incase of a mishap or you have a truck and trailer to take your DD to events. Once I built a purpose built race car, I haven't really looked back at having a "track toy." Same with an off-road toy. I'm on the sentiment on starting out with a truck or van and a trailer and building a track car from whatever budget you have left over. I wish someone would have forced fed that into my mind 20 years ago.
In reply to DirtyBird222 :
See, I'm an OLOA fan. I like driving my racecar to and from and all over. I've gone dedicated play car in the past and I lose interest in them quickly.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:ClearWaterMS said:Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:I'm hoarding old cars that can be racecars. I'm sure I'm not the only one here doing that.
by reducing supply its YOUR fault that demand is going up... shame
What can I say. I don't have $48,000 to buy a car. I paid $3,000 for my Porsche 914 and $2,500 for my Miata. Those will be my racecars. I know a lot of people who race cars they bought for less than $5,000. They are still out there. Crapcan races and the local rallycross group seems to have grids full of them.
Eh, don't blame us - we're not "reducing supply." I have 5 miata, 4 are caged, all of them I got for a song and a dance because I actually showed up and bought them - the two spec miata sat on market place for weeks before I went and got them for WELL under market and was racing the BRG car a few weekends after buying them having done nothing to it and the yellow car looks like it'll be together before the start of this season. My black car I bought from a member here for 1k, my silver car also from a member here for 500.
All of the miata's I've bought were not ready to run or barely running and usually aren't "pretty" - it's fairly easy to find track cars and race cars if you go looking. I mean, hell my ZX2 was well under this imaginary budget and was racing a few weekends after I got it - I didn't have a truck or trailer, I just rented a tow dolly.
In reply to Tom1200 :
I don't think any of that changes anything I said. By picking an unusual car you are choosing a tough road. Particularly for new people who don't have the knowledge to figure things out. The is a world of difference in the level of help and how tos between your Datsun and say pretty much any mustang. Buying a car is just the start of it. I'm not saying it can't be done, but if we're talking about a newbie who is looking to get on the track for the first time and doesn't have the support of dad with (I'm assuming) extensive car knowledge and tools, it might not be the right choice. Heck it doesn't even need to be fast. Buy a base model civic and it is documented to the moon. Buy a saturn sl2 and you'll be chasing DIY videos and parts. TBH it was one of the worst things about one of my cars a few cars back. There was almost zero DIY culture around it and finding how to fix anything was a PITA.
In reply to theruleslawyer :
I'm doing my part and documenting how to make Korean cars more entertaining. Not my fault everyone has been bamboozled into paying the Honda Tax and ignoring everything else.
bobzilla said:In reply to theruleslawyer :
I'm doing my part and documenting how to make Korean cars more entertaining. Not my fault everyone has been bamboozled into paying the Honda Tax and ignoring everything else.
I feel exactly the same way. Hyundai accent, kia Forte, non S cooper, chevy sonic, honda fit, Fiat 500 abarth, and several other can be had on the cheap with three pedals. Minus the cooper they are all super cheap to repair and pretty reliable but why buy a 5k car and go start running over cones and doing track events when you can spend 50k on a car and then complain the licensing process to too expensive and difficult lol.
This whole thread reminds me of a quote I read once:
“IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO SOMETHING YOU’LL FIND A WAY. IF YOU DON’T, YOU’LL FIND AN EXCUSE.” – JIM ROHN
People who *really* want to do a thing will make it happen. People who just *kinda* want to will find every and any excuse why they can't.
It also makes me wish I had easier access to the photo of lap times when my Intrepid outpaced a 911 in excess of 5 seconds.
In reply to DjGreggieP :
Absolutely, you hit the nail on the head. HPDE can be tough and TT/Racing IS tough - you have to want to do it, set aside/prioritize the means to do so, and put yourself out there to learn about it; like most things worth doing in life.
In reply to theruleslawyer :
My point being everything is documented to the moon nowadays.
There's 15 guys on youtube showing what parts to buy and how to bolt them on with basic hand tools.
Getting a car with great support is nice but the oddball cars aren't hard to deal with at all.
If you were silly enough to buy a Datsun 1200 I could tell you where to buy the parts you needed and recommend at least two shops to install the parts.
Miatas, M3s, Civics and Mustangs are go to cars with good reasons but I could build a Saturn track rat just as easily........sure I'd have to spend several hours on the internet but I doing that already.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:accordionfolder said:There's many versions of track day/race car dedicated cars that don't require a truck and trailer. I towed my track cars with a tow dolly and a cx-5, a Mazdaspeed 3, and a cx-9 before I ever went to a truck and trailer. In CA there are a bunch of folks that flat tow their track cars that I encountered when I lived out there, presumably because they were working around space constraints.
This is a really good point. My first "track only" car was a 1.6L Miata that the previous owner got about 94% to being a Spec Miata before selling it. I paid $5k for it and it still had a title and tags. I put a few more hours of prep work into it and drove it to the track for two years for track days. When I got tired of that, I got a tow dolly and pulled it behind my minivan.
Lol, nearly exactly the same path I went with my first dedicated track car. A 1.6 "nearly" spec Miata with a cage, but registered/titled/etc. I drove to events
I could fit 3 wheels where the passenger seat was supposed to be and one in the trunk, heh.
brandonsmash said:In reply to Matt Huffman :
Only with Mazda rotaries is "79k on ORIGINAL engine!" notable as "extremely reliable" and worth bragging about, complete with some weird Spongebob clickbait meme.
Can you imagine Toyota trying to sell a car on that premise? "Our cars are so good they're not likely to require an engine-out repair or replacement before 80,000 miles!"
That reminds me of the classic Dodges that had something like a 30-day manufacturer's warranty.
i was using satire in response to all the folks who say that rotaries in general and rx8s in particular are super unreliable. it's just not true. and when you think that they have just as much in common with 2-stroke engines, which need much more frequent rebuilds, getting 200+ hp out of a lightweight engine the size of a toaster oven revving to 9,000+ rpms is pretty impressive. i'm up to 86k now, showing no signs of slowing down. in my opinion not bad for the benefits that a rotary engine provides: lower weight, lower CG, better weight distribution.
brandonsmash said:In reply to Matt Huffman :
Only with Mazda rotaries is "79k on ORIGINAL engine!" notable as "extremely reliable" and worth bragging about, complete with some weird Spongebob clickbait meme.
Can you imagine Toyota trying to sell a car on that premise? "Our cars are so good they're not likely to require an engine-out repair or replacement before 80,000 miles!"
That reminds me of the classic Dodges that had something like a 30-day manufacturer's warranty.
also, at least my rx8 isn't failing on track due to low oil pressure, ahem toyota. never had a hiccup with the stock rx8 oiling system. even comes with twin oil coolers from the factory on sport models.
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