Maybe its more about the owners attitude. There are nice people and E36M3 heads on both sides.
Maybe its more about the owners attitude. There are nice people and E36M3 heads on both sides.
z31maniac said:mr2peak said:Built shows understanding, it shows you are a car guy (or girl) at heart and you understand your machine.
Bought... anyone can buy a cool car.
It's about that distinction, if you know, you know.I've done multiple engine swaps. Including an OBD-1 S52 into an E30 in a gravel driveway. Suspension, BBKs, etc. Nowadays I'd rather just buy something that's quick, capable and has a warranty.
So am I no longer a "car guy" because I don't enjoy spending all my free time in the garage?
Doesn't mean that at all. There's nothing wrong with buying a nice/fast car. But if you're talking to me over a beer, you can tell me about that e30 and I'll want to hear about it and actually care. But if talk to me about the M3 you just bought new, I'll listen politely and not really care ;)
Whether or not you are a "car guy" isn't about whether you bought a new car. Plenty of car guys buy new cars (including myself). But just buying an exotic/fast car by itself doesn't make one a "car guy" I wouldn't say. Any more than simply buying a new Land Cruiser inherently makes one an "overlander" or "off-road enthusiast."
"Car guy" comes down to your knowledge, skills, etc regarding cars. So, you're a car guy because you have those things, even if you drive a Prius to work, or if you buy a new C8.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:z31maniac said:mr2peak said:Built shows understanding, it shows you are a car guy (or girl) at heart and you understand your machine.
Bought... anyone can buy a cool car.
It's about that distinction, if you know, you know.I've done multiple engine swaps. Including an OBD-1 S52 into an E30 in a gravel driveway. Suspension, BBKs, etc. Nowadays I'd rather just buy something that's quick, capable and has a warranty.
So am I no longer a "car guy" because I don't enjoy spending all my free time in the garage?
Doesn't mean that at all. There's nothing wrong with buying a nice/fast car. But if you're talking to me over a beer, you can tell me about that e30 and I'll want to hear about it and actually care. But if talk to me about the M3 you just bought new, I'll listen politely and not really care ;)
Whether or not you are a "car guy" isn't about whether you bought a new car. Plenty of car guys buy new cars (including myself). But just buying an exotic/fast car by itself doesn't make one a "car guy" I wouldn't say. Any more than simply buying a new Land Cruiser inherently makes one an "overlander" or "off-road enthusiast."
"Car guy" comes down to your knowledge, skills, etc regarding cars. So, you're a car guy because you have those things, even if you drive a Prius to work, or if you buy a new C8.
I'll disagree with the skills aspect. And I make my living off building coach built cars for other folks. You don't need the skills to be a car guy.
Some of the biggest car guys I know couldn't fabricate a set of engine mounts to save their own life. Nor do they need to. But they know all the nuance details of the Marques they are passionate about. And have all sorts of extremely detailed well thought out plans for future builds laid out. They have the bankroll to build them, but not necessarily the talent. Doesn't make them any more or any less of a car guy.
In fact, I *hate* when people gate keep like that. Absolutely 100% can't stand or tolerate it.
What I also find to be just as bad is people claiming to have done the work themselves, when it was either shop done, done by a friend, whatever. There's no harm in admitting its past your skill set. But don't go taking credit for stuff you didn't do.
And I also can't stand the crap fabricators on fan YouTube, motor tend, etc. It's bullE36 M3 work. Don't pass it off as quality and go around talking about your E36 M3 like it's the best there is, when it's positively junk.
Anyway. The beautiful part of about the car hobby is there is something in it for every one. Regardless of whether or not you can build a car from the ground up...starting from flat sheets of steel / alloy stock. Or can't even bolt on basic upgrades. Doesn't make a lick of difference, in my book, as long as you're genuinely passionate about whatever tickles your fancy. From Ferraris to Geo Metros. Doesn't matter
It's a spectrum. Like all hobbies, cars are fairly social. There's always a "would I be seen in this" aspect to a car purchase, though it may be a small one. If you go full hard on the bought end of things, it's really just using cars as a way to signal wealth: showing up to the red carpet in a lambo, or posting instagram pics of luxury cars to show the success of your "hustle".
On the built end of things, aesthetics are still important: Most are more about rebellion from social normals (rat rods and hot rods especially), but some are more about flashiness (sex-spec cars, donks, big body kits). It's like in Freewill by Rush: "even if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice", going full form follows function is an aesthetic statement in and of itself.
Personally, I like more built not bought end of things because I enjoy nerding out about machinery: I'd always rather talk to the person who's designed their own suspension, did their own coach work, an engine swap, etc than the one who bought the high performance package because it cost more. But, I also like anything unconventional, so if you went out of the way to have something custom made, or maintaining and driving something beyond reason then that's cool in my book. The problem folks are the ones who care more about the value of a car and what that says about them than anything else. Stuff like not letting people pass at a track day because you have an expensive car that's fast down the straights, or pulling attention seeking behaviors at shows is perpetually uncool to me.
Just for the record, I said "skills, knowledge, etc." - not necessarily having all of those things, but having one of those things.
There are guys who have an encyclopedic knowledge regarding everything about automotive history or can tell you the crank diameter of some random 1960s eastern european oddball car, but can't build an engine or change out their shocks.
There are guys who can build and engine or race competition cars, but don't have much knowledge of automotive history, or vintage 1950s hot rods, or can't tell one modern Ferrari from another modern Ferrari, or don't follow professional car racing whatsoever. I'm totally in this camp. I can do most things on a car (though a coachbuilder like yourself would probably consider me a total hack), but I can't look at a picture of a 1950s car and tell you if it's a Ford or an Edsel. I race cars in competition but I can't name more than one current F1 or NASCAR driver. I mistake a McLaren for a Lambo half the time when I see one.
Some car guys are awesome at bodywork or paint, but can't build a suspension. Others suck at bodywork at paint (me).
Some car guys buy everything, but can really drive when they're on the track. Some guys can build anything but suck at driving.
I have plenty of friends who are in both camps (and plenty of friends who can't change a flat or change their oil....)
For the sake of argument, I'll stick with the contention that people who just buy a Ferrari but don't know anything about cars other than THAT Ferrari, which they always talk about, probably aren't real "car guys" but rather just guys who want to show off and see a car just the same as they see a Rolex or a big house or a 50-foot boat. Which is a lot of people in this area (Washington DC). It's about "having stuff that costs alot" and less about actually having a passion for that stuff, necessarily.
My take is anyone who's nuts about cars is a car guy; whether that is someone whose only knowledge of cars is the Formula Vee they race or a Jay Leno type.
stuart in mn said:rslifkin said:Bought is fine. But some people who buy something have entirely the wrong attitude about it.
I find more often it's the build not buy people are the ones with an attitude - it seems like they can look down their noses at anyone who hasn't hand dug the iron ore and forged the parts themselves.
I've definitely met those people too, and they're not much better to hang around. And there are plenty who bought something (or had it built for them) but still know a lot about it and got exactly what they wanted, etc. Nothing wrong with that, especially if you don't have the ability to build what you wanted or the right thing came up for sale already built.
But the guy who buys a GTI, has a shop bolt on every "stage 2" APR part in the catalog and slam it on some cheap coilovers, but knows nothing about the parts he installed is much less appealing as a "car guy". Those people just think "goes fast (without knowing what fast really is), looks cool to them and makes obnoxious noises" and then act like they're hot E36 M3 for having it. Many of them will never look at any of the other cars at a show for more than looks, as they know very little about cars beyond what brands are expensive and maybe what the coolest wheels this year are.
Basically, it's the idea of learning your way into the sport (whether it's hands on or not) vs just wanting to buy your way into the sport in 5 minutes with no effort at all.
The acceptability of "bought not built" is right there in the statement. If someone's touting "built not bought", they are clearly separating the two and believe one has an inherent superiority to the other. So no, the inverse would not be acceptable to them.
It's the people who aren't saying "built not bought" that aren't judging because they're not separating the cars into different categories.
Generally, built cars are more interesting to me. Cars that have evolved beyond what was on the showroom floor, and the further they are from just a bunch of catalog parts bolted on the more interesting they are. I don't pay much attention to the latest hypercar but I'd be all over an old sucker Corvette with a tank cooling fan in place of the passenger's seat. Not because it's better, but because there's more problem solving and unique engineering going on. But that's me, there are lots of people who fawn over the latest red car from Maranello. It's also because I'm very familiar with all the bolt-on parts for a specific car, so anything that deviates from the norm stands out :)
I do find that I don't spend a lot of time reading magazine project car updates that consist of "we got this shiny part from (insert name of advertiser here) so we attached it and it's awesome!". Updates that are "we faced this problem and here's how we solved it" are a lot more interesting.
No matter how much money you throw into a hooptie, it will never be a Ferrari. Or whatever exotic car that you lust over.
Unless of course it started out as a Ferrari. But I digress.
In reply to Noddaz :
Does it have to be? I think that might be the crux of the whole thing. For some people, it's about wanting a Ferrari. For some, it's about wanting something more unique, more affordable, less precious, faster, noiser, less pretentious, whatever. The only thing inherent in "Ferrari" is a brand.
"car guy"
I'm learning to really hate that phrase. What does that even mean?
Many moons ago, I was at a rallycross with the CRX and someone came up and started yammering about some dude as though I should know who he was. Apparently he was some sort of well-known legendary drag racer? Eff if I know. I made the mistake of honesty and told this very excited young man that I had no idea who he was talking about and he gave me a bunch of flack because how could I call myself interested in racing - much less a racer - because I didn't know who this guy was. I mean, I'm pretty sure I took home a 2nd or 3rd place in M2 that day, but I guess I'm not a racer.
Same thing here. Can I be a "car guy" but not really know or give a E36 M3 about 60's and 70's muscle cars? I'm aware that the Model T was a thing and I've seen and even helped to load and haul one once. Or maybe it was a Model A. I'm sure there's a difference. But I don't really know or care what it is. Ferraris and Paganis and Bentleys and Bugattis are cool and all, but I couldn't tell you the difference between the The Ferrarri and an Enzo. I'll never own one, so I don't really devote a lot of brain power to it.
berkeley all that. You like it, you do it. Don't want to spend your time or mental power on tinkering but like cars? Fine, buy something that excites you. Hell, buy five or six things that excite you, I don't care. Like to get grease under your nails and have the excitement of never knowing when you're going to need that flatbed? Cool, build away!
It's a big enough buffet for us all to eat dinner together, yknow?
I'll echo the spirit of some of the previous posts. I've always wanted to be the guy who buys junk cars and fixes them up. I've purchased (or been given) a few, but never made through any before I got bored or my skills ran out. I keep telling myself that one day I'll have the time to buy a broken down miata, fox body mustang, or dc integra, fix it and modify it to suit my aesthetic. But I'm slowly realizing that might not actually happen. As I progress through my career and spend more time with my family and friends, new hobbies take that place like brewing beer, hiking, and traveling with my partner and my dog. I'm finding now that instead of looking for that broken down civic that's just a b16 away from greatness, I'm thinking about what I need to do to afford the monthly payment on a BRZ, wrx, or Miata RF. I don't think that not wanting to tinker in the garage over the weekend makes me less of a car guy, only that I've found other ways to allocate a finite amount of time.
GaryC83 said:irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:z31maniac said:mr2peak said:Built shows understanding, it shows you are a car guy (or girl) at heart and you understand your machine.
Bought... anyone can buy a cool car.
It's about that distinction, if you know, you know.I've done multiple engine swaps. Including an OBD-1 S52 into an E30 in a gravel driveway. Suspension, BBKs, etc. Nowadays I'd rather just buy something that's quick, capable and has a warranty.
So am I no longer a "car guy" because I don't enjoy spending all my free time in the garage?
Doesn't mean that at all. There's nothing wrong with buying a nice/fast car. But if you're talking to me over a beer, you can tell me about that e30 and I'll want to hear about it and actually care. But if talk to me about the M3 you just bought new, I'll listen politely and not really care ;)
Whether or not you are a "car guy" isn't about whether you bought a new car. Plenty of car guys buy new cars (including myself). But just buying an exotic/fast car by itself doesn't make one a "car guy" I wouldn't say. Any more than simply buying a new Land Cruiser inherently makes one an "overlander" or "off-road enthusiast."
"Car guy" comes down to your knowledge, skills, etc regarding cars. So, you're a car guy because you have those things, even if you drive a Prius to work, or if you buy a new C8.
I'll disagree with the skills aspect. And I make my living off building coach built cars for other folks. You don't need the skills to be a car guy.
Some of the biggest car guys I know couldn't fabricate a set of engine mounts to save their own life. Nor do they need to. But they know all the nuance details of the Marques they are passionate about. And have all sorts of extremely detailed well thought out plans for future builds laid out. They have the bankroll to build them, but not necessarily the talent. Doesn't make them any more or any less of a car guy.
In fact, I *hate* when people gate keep like that. Absolutely 100% can't stand or tolerate it.
What I also find to be just as bad is people claiming to have done the work themselves, when it was either shop done, done by a friend, whatever. There's no harm in admitting its past your skill set. But don't go taking credit for stuff you didn't do.
And I also can't stand the crap fabricators on fan YouTube, motor tend, etc. It's bullE36 M3 work. Don't pass it off as quality and go around talking about your E36 M3 like it's the best there is, when it's positively junk.
Anyway. The beautiful part of about the car hobby is there is something in it for every one. Regardless of whether or not you can build a car from the ground up...starting from flat sheets of steel / alloy stock. Or can't even bolt on basic upgrades. Doesn't make a lick of difference, in my book, as long as you're genuinely passionate about whatever tickles your fancy. From Ferraris to Geo Metros. Doesn't matter
Gary, I understand what you are saying. But just because you read a book doesn't make you a published author
And even if you are a published author it's different if you self publish. Then there is the difference between a self published author who writes something that is good and someone who self publishes who writes junk.
I'm a greasy hand car guy. There are plenty like me who it's just a job and don't care. And those who are passionate about cars. The guys who care, are passionate. That's who I want to chat with.
There is a difference between those who are passionate because they understand and appreciate cars or those who can just spout "facts"
I want to be inclusive. Our hobby needs new members, included members. There isn't a test to pass to be worthy. But some just aren't. Listening to them long enough and you'll hear them recite chapter and verse of some book. Yet can't hear the difference between a Jaguar XKE and a Ford model A. Both are fine worthy cars but serve a completely different purpose.
I understand about those who lack the skill or talent and need to hire it. Or they lack the time or the other things needed. I also understand poseurs. The latter I have no time for.
As to wealth? It would be nice to be wealthy, but I want to be creative and ambitious. I've met trust fund babies who do wonderful creative things. And the other kind.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:Whatever floats your boat or fits your lifestyle. If you work a demanding job that doesn't leave time for a project but does make a cool car financially viable, good on you. We're all auto enthusiasts here. No need for gatekeeping.
Agreed completely.
The only grumpiness I have is when people who can't install a staple say "I installed XYZ parts on it" when what they really mean is "I had XYZ parts installed on it."
It's subtle but can be an important difference. I don't care if you built it or bought it, but don't try to con me that you built it when you really bought it.
wae said:"car guy"
I'm learning to really hate that phrase. What does that even mean?
Car guy - noun-ish - a guy who has a passion for cars
Patrick said:In reply to mr2peak :
just because i'm selling off stuff to go out and buy a skyline doesn't make it any less an enthusiast owned car or make me any less of a car guy for doing that instead of building it or restoring it from the ground up like the dozens of other cars i have done.
gatekeeping titles and hobbies is silly
This, and also this.
FWIW I consider the Mini thingy to be a severe case of "bought not built". It is mostly scanning eBay and Craigslist and saying "ooh, need that part too". I didn't build hardly anything on the car so far, it is all off the shelf bits. This is for ease of maintenance in the future, if a subframe or something gets mangled I don't want to have to build a new one.
Keith Tanner said:I do find that I don't spend a lot of time reading magazine project car updates that consist of "we got this shiny part from (insert name of advertiser here) so we attached it and it's awesome!". Updates that are "we faced this problem and here's how we solved it" are a lot more interesting.
100% this.
wae said:I was at a rallycross with the CRX and someone came up and started yammering about some dude as though I should know who he was. Apparently he was some sort of well-known legendary drag racer?
Someone at a rallycross was talking about drag racing at all? That by itself is wierd.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:wae said:I was at a rallycross with the CRX and someone came up and started yammering about some dude as though I should know who he was. Apparently he was some sort of well-known legendary drag racer?
Someone at a rallycross was talking about drag racing at all? That by itself is wierd.
But Ed Bergenholtz!!!!1
(why do I even remember that)
Might have been another guy though. I think Ed had a second generation CRX, someone else Famous had a 1st generation.
I intentionally bought a built DRZ400 when I was bike shopping because I wanted to make sure I'd spend more time riding it than wrenching on it. My goal is to be a better rider (and to have a blast on a big loud toy) and that takes seat time instead of garage time.
I don't really mind the bought not built thing. In fact, I love buying a factory car that basically drives the way I want it. The JCW Mini I used to have was almost perfect but it didn't have a mechanical LSD. Ultimately, whether you buy a good car or build a good car, in the end you have a good car. I focus more on enjoying my driving (and of course, improving it too).
In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :
Working in a performance oriented shop, I have seen enough of a pattern that I decided that I wanted a car that did everything I wanted it to do, STOCK.
The pattern:
Light mods. Headers, etc
Heavier mods. Internal engine work, gears, diff, etc. Bolt on superchargers.
Car is starting to get a little day to day unpleasant, but it's okay, right?
Heavier mods. Stronger rearend, now held in with rod ends. Louder exhaust. More engine, which leads to insufficient cooling, and potential annoyances like having to rotate the fuel pump relay connectors to even out the life between the main pump and auxiliary pump.
Car is now kinda unpleasant, and is seen as a thing to be dreaded rather than fun.
Car gets sold at a large loss. New car. Let's put headers on it.
Hmm, maybe a Vortech.
And around and around we go...
Keith Tanner said:The acceptability of "bought not built" is right there in the statement. If someone's touting "built not bought", they are clearly separating the two and believe one has an inherent superiority to the other. So no, the inverse would not be acceptable to them.
It's the people who aren't saying "built not bought" that aren't judging because they're not separating the cars into different categories.
Generally, built cars are more interesting to me. Cars that have evolved beyond what was on the showroom floor, and the further they are from just a bunch of catalog parts bolted on the more interesting they are. I don't pay much attention to the latest hypercar but I'd be all over an old sucker Corvette with a tank cooling fan in place of the passenger's seat. Not because it's better, but because there's more problem solving and unique engineering going on. But that's me, there are lots of people who fawn over the latest red car from Maranello. It's also because I'm very familiar with all the bolt-on parts for a specific car, so anything that deviates from the norm stands out :)
I do find that I don't spend a lot of time reading magazine project car updates that consist of "we got this shiny part from (insert name of advertiser here) so we attached it and it's awesome!". Updates that are "we faced this problem and here's how we solved it" are a lot more interesting.
Well said; If I'm a gate keeper for preferring creativity and quality over a price? I'm fine with that.
Sure if a guy wants to be a car guy and he buys his way onto the track. That's OK with me provided he also accepts the DIY guy. His nose doesn't go in the air when that home built gives him a good race.
To be in the club all that's really needed is the right attitude
ps people like the Nelsons are tops as far as I'm concerned. Tiny budget , not afraid to be different and willing to share anything they learn.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Exactly. I'm okay with the fact that the car has been "modified"/designed by an OEM with far more resources/data than me. I like modifying cars as the next guy but I grow older and find a lack of time to bother with that stuff.
As long as it's not "Built with stolen parts" or "Stolen not built" I'm good with it.
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