College money. Holy carp.

GIRTHQUAKE said:

I'm long-term considering some smaller service in the military, like the national guard once my RN is complete. Do they still take you if you're ~30 and as long as you're in good shape? I'm not sure if I wanna get my masters or just "more", but I figure that if I've gone this far in my life with no student loan debt why start now? Nothing wrong with keeping options open.

Last I heard 28 is the age limit for joining. 

GIRTHQUAKE said:

I'm long-term considering some smaller service in the military, like the national guard once my RN is complete. Do they still take you if you're ~30 and as long as you're in good shape? I'm not sure if I wanna get my masters or just "more", but I figure that if I've gone this far in my life with no student loan debt why start now? Nothing wrong with keeping options open.

For the Air Force specifically, medical service career fields, the age limit is a lot higher (47 yo). But, its competitive. You should def give it a go. You might have to give them 8 years though. You will be a commissioned officer. 

infinitenexus said:

Teh E36 M3 said:

I'm sure it's been said- but please encourage your people to consider the military. Teach for America. Really any "service" gets you a bunch of college paid for if you are willing to give of yourself. My son enlisted in the Air National Guard and they are bending over backward to support his college. Not even including the GI bill.  

This is something I'm trying to be more open to. I did 12 years active duty army and I'm now disabled because of it, and I'd strongly prefer my son not have to go through what I did to get the GI bill. However, with tuition prices what they are now (and what they'll be in 20 years) some form of military service is looking more probable. I think Air National Guard is the way to go; full GI Bill benefits and much lower chance of wrecking your health.

I served during Vietnam and my two tours in Vietnam I found ways to avoid actual combat.   I was young and dumb and flew anyway. 
 With only 2% actually serving  in combat. A person really has to want it.  Or take no action to avoid it.   
     My 2nd tour I was talking to the XO and he kindly suggested ways for me to avoid it  completely and not have it show up on my service record in a negative fashion.   ( he assumed I wanted to be career Navy) 

  Besides some branches of the service Navy, Air Force,  Coast Guard   The service member is far more at risk for injuries  /death in non combat situations.    Liberty/leave, commuting,  training,  etc.  

Even in the army and Marine Corps most jobs do not expose the service member to combat. Even   Jobs such as rifleman  need instructors supply people, administrators, etc. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Frenchy, combat isn't the major disabling factor in military service members. Secondly, 2% experiencing actual combat is such a bad stat when you are a combatants by proxy. The % for that is a lot closer to 100% than it is for 2% for army, air force, marines.

Though I respect your service in Vietnam, comparing  your experience has no relevant impact on today's military. Even 25 years ago is completely different than now. 

You can certainly be an admin troop and have a mortor float over your head or having a rocket hit your office or living quarters. You are right that most injuries aren't combat related, but that doesn't take away from being disabled due to military service. 

I hope my kids never join the military. Ever. But, I will support it if they do and I won't turn anyone away who wants to. 

I retired from the National Guard after a mix of Active and Guard time, Army.  I did 21 years, joined in Oct 92, never got deployed to a combat zone, don't have any health issues, got lucky I guess. When my oldest graduated from HS and said he wanted to go into IT I suggested he look at the Air Guard.  Ohio, and a bunch of other states, pay 100% tuition to a state school, you are only on the hook for room, board and books, pick a job that relates to what you want to do after graduation and there will be work experience.  He went to Basic and Tech school this summer/ fall and is starting school soon.  When he graduates he will have at least 4 years of IT work experience, a handful of Certs, a Security clearance and no debt, not a bad deal at all.

Is the Military a gamble, yes, can it be a pain in the butt, very much yes.  On the other hand very few worthwhile things I have done in my life have been"for sure" or without difficulties so each one of us has to make that decision.  Higher education is very expensive in this country and getting Uncle Sam to pay for most/all of it is not a bad deal I think.

In reply to yupididit :

People seem to think if it didn't happen yesterday or to them  it's not relevant.  
   Of the 5500 on the carrier only my squadron and VS33 actually flew into the combat zone  the rest were safe.    Oh and  same with the crew of destroyers and tankers, Marines on the carrier,   etc. they all got combat pay but no risk of combat. 

  Up on the flight deck  they lost more than a couple. But that was totally voluntary ( even now ) it's almost as good as my flight pay was. Even today the numbers of flight deck personnel lost is pretty darn high. Again totally voluntary. 
     Last I looked flight crews are a lot safer  even during the Gulf war.  Than we experienced in Vietnam. But again there are  still so many ways of avoiding it.  Some pilots got only the required 4 hours a month while I was always  over 150 hrs.   That's very high for now60 is more typical. 
     My point is yes even in peacetime military personal get injured and killed.   Typically  at a slightly lower rate than civilians. The problem is not when they are in but afterwards. I hear from my buddies that's  getting slightly better though. 
 

  Wow,  I digressed.  Military service was an honor  and a blessing.  I am not minimizing anyone's contribution but it's not the death sentence some seem to believe.  

In reply to frenchyd :

You missed my point but go ahead you got it bro. 

My friend tells me how his daughter was admitted to an ivy league school with a scholarship. I asked why he wasn't happier? "Because it's a 50 percent scholarship and tuition + room and board is $110,000/yr." "So a 4-year degree will cost you $220,000?" "Yep." "Say, wasn't she also interested in becoming an electrician?"  

mazdeuce - Seth said:

It's been about 20 years since I finished college. It seemed expensive then. I knew it was even more expensive now, but it wasn't until I got the itemized bill for Deucekid#1's first semester that I realized just how insane it was. A good state school, not one of the big 2 in Texas, but one of the next level, for four years, without books, will be over $100k. Based on what we have saved since the kid was born, we would have needed to double the $2k a year we've saved. Had be ween able to estimate things properly we would have needed to put away $4k a year over the last 16 years. $333 a month. And we've been on the good end of growth of money over the last 16 years which makes it a lot cheaper than doing the reverse and paying off loans in the other direction. 

I'm just blown away. 

 

Dude tell me about it. I'm at TAMU Law for my Masters and JD right now and paying out of pocket. The Master's program alone is going to cost me $35k for classes, books, and their ridiculous fees for paying cash vs. paying with a loan. I may just stop at the masters graduation because I do need to amp up my savings for my kids college funds. 

Each one of my kids gets two "free" years from my GI Bill that I passed onto them. The problem is how do I pay for the other four years? When I got divorced the judge awarded my ex-wife the $30k savings account (10 years of diligently putting away $3k a year gone in a flash) I had for the kids education fund and she blew that on a new car. She also has no plan to save for them or replenish that so I'm left on my own to sort out my kids future. 

I did some of my own forecasting taking what it costs me in my last year of my undergrad in 2009 compared to what it costs now, applied those same levels of inflation to when my kids will be in college, and assuming they'll go to a state university in Florida and figured I'll need at a minimum $40k for each kid to finish out their last two years, so $80k total. I'm assuming it'll be closer to $100k+ in reality. 

I have two options.  Retire or pay for my kids' college.  I am choosing to retire.  Having a SAHM that will take care of you for 18 years is your gift.  I can't give anything else. 

There are a LOT of financial aid options available for students. No one will give you money for your retirement. 
 

All 5 of my kids went to college. Good schools. All of them could have gone to Harvard for free (none did).  2 went to grad school. 
 

I contributed about $5K per kid. Total value of their education? $895,000. 
 

Only one of them still has any student debt... she's still in school. The rest were  able to keep it at a minimum (less than $20K), and have it paid off within 5 years.

It required hard work. They HAD to keep their grades up. It was also hard for me. I HAD to push back very hard on 8 different educational institutions.
 

Honestly, if they were not able to keep their grades up, they probably would not have been college material. 
 

Why go into debt for several hundred thousand dollars just so your kid can go to parties every weekend?

There are different viable paths.

My 15 y.o. daughter and I are having conversations about this.  Basically, I'm not going to be able to help her financially in any significant way and she needs to know that now so she sees how important it will be to keep her grades up to be eligible for whatever scholarships interest her.  I'm advising her to keep all her options open regardless of how disinterested she may be in them (i.e. ROTC/active duty).  SV's post above is reassuring that it can be done.   Hell, I'd love to see a detailed description of how he did it...

Air Guard is another way to get lots of help with school without a huge active commitment. My son has two years of my GI bill, but is currently on active orders and living in his own apartment in Ventura while the guard pays for his JC tuition and books assistance.  Living like a king at 19. We saved his whole life for college, but he may not have to even touch it. 

In reply to stroker :

I'm not sure how many details I can share...

First off, I DIDN'T DO IT.  My KIDS did it.  They deserve the credit. I made it really clear to them that they couldn't expect me to carry them financially through college. I offered to pay for the first semester. 
 

I spent years helping them understand the options, encouraging them to keep their grades up, and teaching them to be critical thinkers. I encouraged all of them to consider the military (none did). I insisted when the time came to make applications to colleges that they make at least 3 different applications, and that one be a state school. We learned about scholarships, grants, etc. 
 

Then THEY made their choices. And they also accepted responsibility for the consequences. (Payments, grades, etc)

2 of my sons dropped out before graduation. That was hard for me- I come from a line of educators. But it was really good choices for THEM. 
 

My 2 daughters chose schools that were much more expensive than I would have recommended. They understood the responsibility that meant. 
 

I also encouraged them to avoid liberal arts degrees. I have one- I think they are worthless. All of my kids pursued liberal arts degrees (their Mom's idea). 
 

I think the best thing a parent can do for their kids is to not do it for them. 

Other than encouraging my kids, there was one other thing I did...

I fought a lot with the schools. 
 

It's the business office's job to make money. If there is any way they can push a parent to start writing checks, they WILL. Every dollar they can get from parents is a dollar they don't have to use from their pool of financial assistance, which can then be used for other students.  They are VERY good at pressuring parents. And I had to honestly be prepared to stand behind the consequences when I said to them "I will not be writing checks. If that means my kid has to drop out of school, so be it."  Then they would tell me I could get a second mortgage.  "Nope."

You will find that the schools cut you out of participation in your kid's decisions. They won't tell you their grades, or their classes, or anything (unless your student signs a waiver/ release for you to see their info). The schools want to treat the students like adults. Therefore, I figure they should also treat them like adults when it comes to the money they'd like to be be paid. If they can, they'd much rather come after your wallet than your kid's (because you have money and assets, and your kids don't).  Expect a lot of pressure.

Some of the choices my kids made:

- ALL of them were dual enrolled for at least one year in High School. They were earning college credits when they were still in High School. 
- ALL of them took as many CLEP tests and earned every credit they could before they got to college. They all started college with 1-3 semesters of credit already earned.  This improved their admissions strength (they looked motivated), but also reduced the number of credits they had to pay for.

- My oldest daughter completed all the course work for an associates degree before she entered college, but refused the degree. If she had taken the degree she would have been considered a transfer student to her 4 year program instead of an incoming freshman. The financial assistance available for freshmen is better than for transfer students. 
- My daughter chose to go to one of the best endowed schools in the country. It ultimately meant in-house financial assistance worth about $180,000

- My son chose to go to a less expensive state school for his undergraduate work, then a specialist school for his graduate work

- The kids who earned the most in financial assistance were the ones who got involved in the most clubs and extra curricular activities. Schools like to see engaged students 

- They spent a lot of time at the financial aid office learning about their options- all 4 years

- 3 of them took on campus jobs while in school

- My oldest son dropped out with only 1 class left, but it was because he KNEW his career path, and KNEW the degree wouldn't help him. He made an informed intelligent decision. He is now a top professional in the film industry and has earned 2 Emmy awards. 
- My middle son realized shortly after he started school that he had chosen the wrong school, and couldn't keep his grades up. He dropped out, and now enjoys a career in the printing trade

- They all applied for every scholarship they could find that they were eligible for

- When my oldest daughter ran out of money  to finish school, she wanted to drop out. I told her to tell everyone she could at the school that she would have to  drop out. They wanted to keep her (good students become good alumni). They pressured me, and pushed, and when it finally came down to the wire, they ponied up a full ride for her remaining schooling

- All of them had student loans, but kept them as low as possible. 
 

It was work for all of us. 

I went to a Cal State University for both undergrad and graduate school and my bachelor's degree was ~$16,800 in today's money.

My parents agreed to pay all direct Cal State University expenses (tuition, books, lab fees, parking, etc.) for four years if I maintained good grades (I'm not sure what that exactly meant - probably stay off academic probation).  If I went to a more expensive school, took more than four years, or lived away from home, I'd be on the hook for those expenses and helping with grad school was flat out.

My eldest daughter went away for college and is a freshman biology major at University Nevada, Reno which costs $35K per year.  I'm paying for all of it and they gave her a discount for good grades...Cal State wouldn't so it isn't costing much more for her to go away.

Unfortunately, we don't qualify for any assistance but we're not so affluent that the ~150K isn't tough to manage.

Whatever, I just ignore 300K of my net worth knowing that it's allocated to my two daughter's educations and press ahead.  

IMO, student loans are not the problem. INTEREST on student loans is the issue.

If the current or future administrations want to make college affordable, loan money at zero interest. Same "no bankruptcy" loan terms but at least the balance wouldn't grow. And grow. 

If the loan wasn't repaid by the time a person started to draw Social Security, said social security would pay off the loan balance before the person would get any payments.

This plan should cost the government only the admin costs of the program and take predatory loans out of the equation. I feel it would be a win-win-win for the government, tax payers and students.

Opinions?

67LS1 said:

IMO, student loans are not the problem. INTEREST on student loans is the issue.

If the current or future administrations want to make college affordable, loan money at zero interest. Same "no bankruptcy" loan terms but at least the balance wouldn't grow. And grow. 

If the loan wasn't repaid by the time a person started to draw Social Security, said social security would pay off the loan balance before the person would get any payments.

This plan should cost the government only the admin costs of the program and take predatory loans out of the equation. I feel it would be a win-win-win for the government, tax payers and students.

Opinions?

As we've seen in the past, colleges will charge as much as they can such that they continue to keep their seats full...if we reduce interest rates, tuitions will be increased proportionally.  Basically, the students are just a pass through for money to move from tax payers to universities. 

It's not a bad plan, but does not address the primary issue, which is colleges cost too much (or really, people are paying too much). 

Easy money just makes things more expensive (see residential real estate).  Making large education loans easy to get only encourages colleges to charge more.  This plan (although, as stated is not really a bad one) essentially guarantees the schools will get paid. 

If a large percentage of load takers (private, not federal) defaulted on their loans, that might actual encourage schools to be more realistically prices / financed.  I am not suggesting this as a good thing for the loan takers, just pointing out something that would actually encourage "the right direction of change".

Just as an aside, the inflationary forces IRT higher education is insane. I went to UCLA in the early 1980s. Tuition was about $1,300/yr for in-state. Now? It's nuts. I paid my way through working as a chauffeur. It was hard. No money for play. I got used to hunger pangs. But I've never taken a penny of debt or grants. 

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

Of note: not sure where this "commuter" is staying, but $855 / month, almost anywhere near LA is likely to be pretty bleak living conditions!

67LS1 said:

IMO, student loans are not the problem. INTEREST on student loans is the issue.

If the current or future administrations want to make college affordable, loan money at zero interest. Same "no bankruptcy" loan terms but at least the balance wouldn't grow. And grow. 

If the loan wasn't repaid by the time a person started to draw Social Security, said social security would pay off the loan balance before the person would get any payments.

This plan should cost the government only the admin costs of the program and take predatory loans out of the equation. I feel it would be a win-win-win for the government, tax payers and students.

Opinions?

Ok. Opinions...

My opinion is that your comment about student loans may not be well researched, and may be heavily influenced by your personal experience, and media input. 
 

The current interest rate on Federal Student loans is 4.99%. That's not a rate I would call predatory.  92% of student loans are Federal Student loans. Yes, there are some private loans with worse rates, but they only represent 8% of the loans. I would suggest that people should not sign up for bad loans. 

Student loans have no collateral, and the borrower is risky (they have no job, and no credit history).  Rates are higher than collateral loans. There are 3.5 million student loans in default right now.  I understand you feel that is the fault of the lenders.  I have trouble feeling the borrowers don't have a responsibility.

"Lenders" aren't really lenders of student loans. They are servicers. The money comes from the US Treasury (taxpayers). The servicers (banks) make between $0.45 and $2.85 per month servicing fee.

Loan balances shouldn't grow if people are making their payments. Federal Student loans are fixed rate loans (the rate doesn't change), and standard Federal Student loans are 10 years. Extended loans are 25 years. No one should be reaching retirement with unpaid student loans. If they are, they are doing something very wrong (probably in default). That's not the lender's fault. 

If the Federal Government subsidized student loans, then the taxpayers get to pay for it.  As a taxpayer, I don't think I should have to pay for someone else's education. That's their choice, and it is definitely NOT a necessity.  I'd rather spend money creating good jobs that didn't require a degree than pay for people to get degrees who don't need them, and aren't ready to work for them. 

Not everyone is college material, and that's ok. 
 

My $0.02

My opinion is colleges cost too much to attend but after my son invests nine years into getting a PhD and then looking to teach at a medium size university I have a second opinion.  

Universities pay jack as compared to taking your PhD to industry.  $75-$85,000 a year to teach?  $125-$150,000 to work corporate? 

LOL - I know you can't really compare.