MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
12/16/21 2:36 p.m.

A thought about green/white/checker... there's no reason why they couldn't make this happen. All they have to do is write it into the rules. A way it could work is allow for a red flag condition pit stop where all teams may go for fresh tires and fuel under a relaxed stop to ensure safe refueling. Then line up all the cars on the grid in the positions they were in when the incident occurred and go.

Identify the conditions under which this event would be triggered and add the procedure to the rule book.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/16/21 2:51 p.m.

In reply to MrFancypants :

As mentioned, they can't really refuel due to how the cars are built now. 

And even with a standard race distance, most cars are underfueled to complete the full race distance at max power because they are trying to have the least amount of weight in the car possible. It's why you often see cars at the front turn the engine down, start doing "lift and coast" into braking zones, etc. 

MrFancypants
MrFancypants HalfDork
12/16/21 2:56 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I'm sure the army engineers it takes to design and build these cars could figure out a way to get more fuel into them if the idea were implemented.

Region_Rat
Region_Rat New Reader
12/16/21 3:02 p.m.
NY Nick said:

GWC wouldn't work for the reasons of fuel and it wouldn't have solved the issue, the issue was you had one car on brand new softs and one car on used hards. That decision on tires was based on the assumption that race control would follow standard ops and the race would end in the status quo. The race director didn't do that. To be fair to Masi he picked the winner either way but the way he picked it had 2 issues: first he reversed the finishing order, if he let the race end under caution then the car that lead would have won the race. second: I wanted Lewis to win so I don't like it.... smiley.

In all seriousness if they wanted a race they should have red flagged as soon as it happened, everyone gets new tires, and we have a shootout of the two championship leaders for 4 laps or until one (or both) of them is in the wall. A lot less people to be angry with that choice.

It would have worked if it was in the rules and the cars carried enough fuel to compensate for the potential GWC at the end.  They would have then had time to let all the lapped cars through and the lead lap cars could have pitted or stayed out and had the two lap shootout.  I wasn't suggesting that Masi should have done that for this race, but as something for the future to allow race finishes to happen without a safety car leading the way.

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/16/21 3:03 p.m.

In reply to MrFancypants :

But, then you would have to have fuel in the pits and some sort of refueling rig.  The last big fire they had is how we got to where we are today.

 Jos Verstappen was involved in this very, very bad refueling accident back in 1994.

Asphalt_Gundam
Asphalt_Gundam Reader
12/16/21 3:11 p.m.

WOW...that's a picture

johndej
johndej Dork
12/16/21 3:12 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to MrFancypants :

It could be argued that all of those decisions WERE made before the race started in the form of published safety car procedures.

This^, the race director announced that they were following protocol and teams reacted according. Then with little warning, made two changes, letting only the lapped cars that were between Lewis and Max past instead of the entire group, and two, calling in the safety car a lap early. Fire Masi.

MrFancypants
MrFancypants HalfDork
12/16/21 3:16 p.m.
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to MrFancypants :

But, then you would have to have fuel in the pits and some sort of refueling rig.  The last big fire they had is how we got to where we are today.

 Jos Verstappen was involved in this very, very bad refueling accident back in 1994.

Please key in on my use of the word "relaxed" in relation to "pit stop." Take as much time as is needed to do it safely. Pull the cars back into the garage to do it if necessary, get the drivers out of the cars, doesn't matter to me. 

I can't imagine it would take more than a few minutes to safely add a couple of gallons to fuel to the cars.

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/16/21 3:20 p.m.

In reply to MrFancypants :

I understand what you're proposing, and it probably wouldn't take a whole lot to implement.  But i think F1 has moved on from refueling during a race, so much so that reinstating the practice is more than likely a non-starter.  EDIT: Even in a red-flag situation, it's something I don't see them bringing back anytime soon.  The teams are really good at predicting the correct fuel load for each track at race pace.  And while they do cut it really close, it's rare that the cars run out of fuel before the end of the race.  Of course, never say never.

Region_Rat
Region_Rat New Reader
12/16/21 3:28 p.m.
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to MrFancypants :

I understand what you're proposing, and it probably wouldn't take a whole lot to implement.  But i think F1 has moved on from refueling during a race, so much so that reinstating the practice is more than likely a non-starter.  

So slightly enlarge the fuel cell and carry a bit more fuel, that could be added to the rules.  No need for refueling and a couple extra gallons in each car would weigh the exact same so no issue there.  Assuming race ends normally there should be several gallons onboard that the FIA could check and Seb wouldn't have run out of fuel and been DQ'd!

 

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/16/21 3:41 p.m.

In reply to Region_Rat :

They have actually done that, back in 2019 they went up to 110kg of fuel from 105kg so the engines could run at full power for a whole race per F1.com.  For 2021 the max fuel load was 100kg, due to the sustainability push by F1 and the FIA it's unlikely they will go back to 110 or even 105kg.  But again, never say never. 

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
12/16/21 3:49 p.m.
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

But, then you would have to have fuel in the pits and some sort of refueling rig.  The last big fire they had is how we got to where we are today.

I don't think safety was really the major concern that made them get rid of refueling.  The other major racing series (Indy, NASCAR, Le Mans, etc) all manage to have in-race refueling without causing mayhem so I'm pretty sure they could figure it out if they wanted to.

I think it's more that refueling was perceived as contributing to boring races because too much of the passing happened in the pits rather than on-track.  I'm not sure if tire-driven undercuts are actually any better in this regard, but that was the thinking at the time.

As for big rule changes to allow for green/white/checker stuff, it just doesn't happen very often in F1 so it's hard to see much point.  In the last 20+ years I've been watching, I can only think of 4 or 5 times it's happened.

 

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/16/21 4:28 p.m.
MrFancypants said:
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to MrFancypants :

But, then you would have to have fuel in the pits and some sort of refueling rig.  The last big fire they had is how we got to where we are today.

 Jos Verstappen was involved in this very, very bad refueling accident back in 1994.

Please key in on my use of the word "relaxed" in relation to "pit stop." Take as much time as is needed to do it safely. Pull the cars back into the garage to do it if necessary, get the drivers out of the cars, doesn't matter to me. 

I can't imagine it would take more than a few minutes to safely add a couple of gallons to fuel to the cars.

What you are describing is a red flag, and if you throw the red, you don't need more fuel.

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
12/16/21 6:47 p.m.

Am I alone in being ambivalent about a race finishing under yellow or not? 

I have watched many endurance races and sprint races end under safety car and don't ever feel cheated. 

It is part of racing just as much as anything since everyone started to think we should keep drivers living longer. 

 

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
12/16/21 6:53 p.m.

Monday morning I thought to myself, "I wonder if MB would exit F1 over this." To spend billions and have two odd rule changes made against you over the penultimate lap of the final championship deciding race would be a rather strong corporate agreement breach. 

I also thought that Lewis may just quit if he doesn't see any signs of F1 correcting this. Hard to win when the referees call your touchdown an own goal. And give the other team 14 points.

NY Nick
NY Nick HalfDork
12/16/21 7:07 p.m.

In reply to Advan046 :

I don't think MB F1 is going anywhere. They may spend millions of dollars but they are a business and they make millions of dollars off of that investment. 
Toto did make some weird statements today about he was sure Lewis would come back from this or something like that. It didn't sound like back to winning form it sounded like he could be considering leaving. That was just me reading into what he said though. I'll look for the quote. 

NY Nick
NY Nick HalfDork
12/16/21 7:10 p.m.

In reply to NY Nick :

So this was the quote. It's on F1.com
“It's going to take a long time to digest what has happened on Sunday,” said Wolff. “I don't think we will ever [get] over it, that's not possible, and certainly not him as a driver.
“I would very much hope that Lewis continues racing, because he's the greatest driver of all time,” added Wolff. “When you look at it from the point of view of the last four races, he dominated.
“So we will be working through the events over the next weeks and months and I think as a racer, his heart will say ‘I need to continue’ because he's at the peak of his game. But we have to overcome the pain that was caused upon him on Sunday.”

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
12/16/21 7:33 p.m.

In reply to NY Nick :

Hmm I see.

Yeah I think Angela and her company need to earn their pay in helping Lewis find his center. 

Curious how this will play out. 

 

Jay_W
Jay_W SuperDork
12/16/21 7:41 p.m.

I dunno. That was a WWE moment and F1 has lost so much credibility that unless there are some serious changes made, and some investigations, I for one will lose any remaining interest. The takeaway I got, too loud and too clear, was the outcome got fixed, blatantly enough to make me wonder if money changed hands in the last 1 or 2 safety car laps. I hope the FIA realizes just how smelly the whole thing appears. 

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
12/16/21 8:40 p.m.

Super late silly season question -- if Hamilton retires and Mercedes stays in who do they put in the seat next to George Russell?  Pretty much everyone has a contract already, right?

Kimi?  Jack Aitken?

Hire Mick Schumacher away from Haas/Ferrari? :)  Mercedes is the last team his dad drove for, so...

 

 

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/16/21 8:59 p.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Hulkenberg? Did Grosejan ever get his Mercedes spin? 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/16/21 9:05 p.m.

I don't think Lewis is going anywhere.

If they really want to get the fans riled up, they buy out Lando Norris :)

intrepid
intrepid Reader
12/16/21 9:14 p.m.

I hope Hamilton doesn't retire. If he does, I doubt it will be because of championship issues. I am more concerned that he has looked exhausted after several races this year. This could be the result of long COVID, but I hope it is not something more ominous.

If he does retire, there are numerous young drivers that Merc could choose from. Both Stoffle van Dorne and Nick de Vries are doing well in Formula E, and they are already associated with Merc. Also, there is Oscar Piastra (spelling?) who is doing well in the lower formulas and many have pegged as a future F1 prospect. I think he is currently associated with Renault, but I doubt that would be a problem if Merc wants him. Kimi...I doubt it. I love Kimi, but he is past his sell by date for F1.

Jay_W, I understand what you are saying, but I am going to hang in there for at least a bit longer.  The last few races really showed signs of manipulation to increase the entertainment factor, but it didn't totally ruin the racing up until the end. I am going to hold on for a bit longer in hope that they learn a lighter touch. That said, I doubt that I will watch every race as I did this year. There are just too many of them these days, but that is another issue...

-chris r.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/16/21 9:43 p.m.

As to Lewis, he looked tired after races because he was driving at the apex of concentration for two hours, and he feels no need to hide his fatigue, because he's 36.

No way he retires.  The loss this year will just bring him back stronger.  Compare it to his performance in the last four races this year, where any reasonable man would have probably settled back and said, "Oh well.  Max is too far ahead."  Not in his DNA, I don't think.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/16/21 9:44 p.m.

He has said that he was feeling the effects of long COVID. 

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